Claiming Freedom - Letting Go of Shame and Blame

Claiming Freedom – Letting Go of Shame and Blame

[00:00:00] Kalpa: I was tired of having those same stories, like be the reason to be a certain way in life. I wanted freedom, I wanted no, no more secrets in my life. No more like, uh, easy conversations. No more like trying to fix myself. Right. That's what I wanted.

[00:00:32] Hecate: Hi there. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Hecate and this is Finding OK. A healing podcast

for survivors of sexual assault and any and all abuse. Today I'm joined by Kalpashree Gupta. Kalpa is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. In the past, Kalpa sometimes used achievements to avoid dealing with childhood or workplace trauma. By owning her own story,

focusing on her healing work, [00:01:00] and being open about her experiences, she is changing people's lives

and the way that we do business. Kalpa is the CEO and founder of Knekxt Group, a consulting and coaching company helping clients create trauma-informed workplaces for tomorrow. And now

it's time

for-

Trigger and content warnings for this episode include the following: trauma, abuse, sexual assault, child abuse, incest, religion, spirituality, suicidal ideation, and brief mention of struggles with infertility. Please check in with yourself and make sure you're all right to continue.

And yeah, so here, here we are.

And, um, I'd, I'd like to start with, are you

okay?

[00:01:53] Kalpa: I am more than Okay. I'm feeling joyant and blessed today.

[00:01:57] Hecate: Nice. [00:02:00] And what is a compliment that you have received and that you've never

forgotten?

[00:02:05] Kalpa: I've received a lot of compliment that I, my eyes are very soulful and beautiful and I, I tend to believe that and I remind myself of that every day.

[00:02:15] Hecate: Nice. Yeah, it's always, uh, it's always nice when someone sees something in you.

[00:02:21] Kalpa: Yeah.

[00:02:22] Hecate: And what is your favorite color or color combination and what do you associate with it?

[00:02:28] Kalpa: Yeah, it's red and purple both. And I associate, um, I had done this assessment a while ago, right? How you fascinate by Sally Stead. And red is, uh, red is a power, you know, color of power.

And I so personally associate, I think it just brings out the best and red looks great on everybody. Um, and,

um, purple,

which is again, uh, prestige as and, and, and both of those color for me and, and, and more than prestige as I think it has that regal mystique, [00:03:00] uh, a certain kind of quality about purple that I feel really drawn to.

So both, both are my favorite colors.

[00:03:06] Hecate: They are both very intense, like strong, powerful, passionate royal colors. It's

true.

[00:03:12] Kalpa: For a long time. I always, um, I used to wear red in India quite a bit sometimes, right? But I would always in corporate life. I, I. I put myself mostly in blue and black and shades of gray and how that changes your mood and how you feel about yourself, I can't even tell you.

Right. So now mostly see me in different shades of red again.

[00:03:37] Hecate: Nice. I like that. Yeah.

And uh, if I had to summon you in a ritual, what five things would I need to place as offerings at each point of the pentacle on the floor?

[00:03:52] Kalpa: Yeah. You know, this question is so interesting and I came down to, um,

some of my [00:04:00] values and I, what, what I want amplified in my life.

Right? So it's going

to be some form of knowledge, like learning.

[00:04:07] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:07] Kalpa: So a book or what I write in my journals. Right. Um, It's gotta be some form of music that feel fuels my soul. So maybe there's some music playing on. Um, number three, it's something that that, and two, two of the items are, um, how we can show compassion

in the world.

One is like through

money, and the other is through prayers, right?

[00:04:31] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:32] Kalpa: And that, that was four, right? And then the fifth one is, uh, food that nourishes. So for me, food can be either fruit or I love, my son loves my husband's homemade ghee, and ghee is such a purifier in Indian culture, like from a spiritual. So when you talk about ritual, I think those are the five things that came to me.

[00:04:53] Hecate: It's become a staple in my household as well. And, uh, and just, uh, the ritual of, [00:05:00] of making it and having it and having it be a part of every meal. And, uh, yeah, it's a beautiful thing. Do you have a favorite kind of music or something that you would prefer to be

playing?

[00:05:12] Kalpa: Um, I, I have a wide variety in music, but I

tend to, I like a lot of old melodious Hindi songs of the genre back in the days of, um, Lata Mangeshkar and, you know, uh, Manade and, um,

[00:05:27] Hecate: mm-hmm.

[00:05:27] Kalpa: One of my favorite singers is also, um, Bhupen Hazarika. He was from the eastern part of India, in Assam he's, um, lyricist music composer. I have some very childhood memories of that, like, you know

[00:05:39] Hecate: mm-hmm.

[00:05:39] Kalpa: Listening to his music. So for

me, um, I,

I listen to a lot of like, um, you know, uh, Western music too. Like my playlist is probably filled with all, but I, like, I tend to get drawn to a, um, lovely melody of songs, like, which is focused on more vocal, and I used to sing a lot, so, yeah.

[00:05:59] Hecate: Nice. [00:06:00] And I would love to hear three essentials to your self-care.

[00:06:05] Kalpa: Three essentials, meditation, exercise, and sleep.

[00:06:09] Hecate: Mm. What kind of exercise do you tend to gravitate towards?

[00:06:13] Kalpa: Um, something that is calming for me, right? So right now I'm doing more stretches like Pilates and

[00:06:19] Hecate: mm-hmm.

[00:06:20] Kalpa: I go to a gym for more cardio once a

week.

Um, but that takes the, it's about five, uh, five days every week.

Right. That's my current ritual where I

[00:06:30] Hecate: Wow.

[00:06:30] Kalpa: Not been that and

it's 50 minutes, like each day. So, but

it's not, I would say I built that muscle in the last three months because for the last two years or so, it's been like mostly twice a week or you know, like twice a week.

At one point I used to run. Um, but now it's become, I've realized that my body is more, like, needs more, like something that is more stretching, flexibility as opposed to really, um, you know, something very strenuous.

[00:06:58] Hecate: Yeah. Nice. [00:07:00]

[00:07:02] Kalpa: I experienced childhood sexual abuse and I found it connects with the intention of, um, What's next for me and with an intention of being leading fully connected life, right?

And helping other people connect with themselves, and helping other organization connect with ideas, and,

and that company and idea and everything

is evolving as I'm evolving. And,

um, right now

really my mission is to impact a hundred million lives in 10 years.

[00:07:30] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:30] Kalpa: Because I believe that we can shift, you know, conscious leaders to create workplaces that are trauma informed as well as we show up boldly and show the world the possibilities that we are not broken.

We can shift other people from the identities that are stuck in, you know, shame, blame, and guilt to feeling fully integrated and whole. And we can really be kinder to ourselves. So that's in a nutshell what I do. I do it through consulting. Uh, we do it also through coaching private [00:08:00] clients and, um, it's, um, been a joy, you know, to, and it's a privilege to be able to.

Uh, where I was few years ago and now, you know, being able to serve and, and see the shift in people that I work with.

[00:08:17] Hecate: Mm-hmm. How did you, how did you get from that place of, um, of healing into, uh, I'm, I'm ready to create this, to make this happen and like that, uh, you're, you are doing something so incredible and something that I think probably for, for people who are very much in a different part of their own healing journey, something that seems completely impossible.

Um, cuz when you are in a certain state of healing, it's hard to imagine doing or accomplishing anything. Um, how did, how did you get to where you are to creating what you are [00:09:00] creating?

[00:09:01] Kalpa: Yeah. You know, I was reflecting on that question, you know, and I think the story began probably, uh, this marks the end of a chapter in my life, right?

10 years ago, um, my husband and I, we were like looking to get pregnant, going through our infertility journey. And that's a lot of it. Like, um, I realized, I think the story began in some shape there. Right? Well, in, because in my path to motherhood, right? I learned a ton about how I was storing the trauma in my body.

And especially after my son was born. And as I was in my workplace,

uh, a lot of, um, I felt at one point, um, I felt like I was put in a box and I was putting on this mask,

you know,

like, and, and. In spite of all the achievements, like it wasn't enough. Like that's, its constant

questioning of self. I'm, I'm not good enough.

And I also heard those messages sometimes, right?

[00:09:56] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:56] Kalpa: The need for being perfectionist,

and, and I [00:10:00] internalized a lot of that. And it is not

until my son was like three or four years ago that I looked

at him one day and I was like, wait a second.

Like if he, if, if somebody were to talk to him this way, or if somebody, or if, uh, something like, what happened to me were to happen to him, would it be his fault?

No. You know?

[00:10:19] Hecate: Yeah.

[00:10:19] Kalpa: Um,

and, and I think that that was a, that started a shift in me in some ways. Both, you know, um, showing up, starting to show up more boldly in my workplace and asking questions and um, also, Planning my exit in some ways. Right? Um, but long story short, um, it took me a few years since then to just go down my own coaching,

um, sorry, my own therapy, right.

Both talk therapy, top-down, and as well as, um, a lot of breath work, you know, um, somatic, you know, experiences as well as, um, working with coaches through, I mean the whole, like you name a [00:11:00] modality and I can probably have done it with the exception of EMDR. And, uh, and uh,

eventually what I realized also in my healing journey, that I got to the same point where I was thinking, oh, there's still something wrong.

I got to fix everything. Like, you know, so I went after every possibility and even till then I kind of look at, oh, as I'm coaching and I'm helping, I need to do all these things. So that questioning of, you know, um, the same old fear like of not being enough, not being good enough show up at every

bold step we take.

Right? So

I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that the healing is done from a

lifelong like pattern perspective.

[00:11:42] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:42] Kalpa: I would say the sexual trauma, sexual abuse that is, uh, a past from a, from a, it doesn't hold any power over me in terms of. But the patterns are very ingrained and I am very much aware and they, they show up and I [00:12:00] simply know I have tools to reframe them.

Right. So that essentially is how I have got here so far.

[00:12:09] Hecate: What has helped you the most in terms of recognizing those patterns and beginning to reframe

them?

[00:12:15] Kalpa: You know, at one point I hit, uh, I hit a very

low point and I remember I want,

I was sitting with my husband in a, uh, on a couch and I wanted to go for therapy and

he basically, um, started crying, thinking our marriage was falling apart. And honestly, at that point I wasn't even sure whether it was the marriage, uh, or whether it was the work, whether it was like, I didn't want a chil child

what it was. I was like, I didn't

even have the energy to like tell him, reassure him.

Right. I just knew that I was the common denominator in everything, and if things needed to shift like that, like I needed to do something. You know, that was not the vision of my life that I had when I, [00:13:00] um, started on this path. Like, I mean, if you, if you knew me as a child, like people, like my identity was, even though sexual abuse happened, I was very driven.

I was ambitious. You know, I, I wanted financial empowerment

because I've seen how women, you know, like even in my own household, educated

women, like sometimes they were subjugated. Or,

or even men, I won't say they were in a very good, um,

state because there were a lot of expectations from there. My, you know, my, my dad, he was the eldest

and gave up his studies and, um,

you know, really worked hard.

He is, he is almost 70, I mean his seventies and he is still working hard. So a lot of, um, Bringing it full circle. Like I, I think that is how, you know, like at that point I realized that, um, something was not right. You know, talking to

my husband and, and I, um, basically I'm not a quitter, you know? And, and, and I say that with the caution because sometimes the sexual

[00:14:00] abuse survivors or people that have experienced, we also tend to take on a lot of responsibility for others' actions, right?

To protect. So,

so I'm not, when I say I'm not a quitter, I'm not a quitter

in me,

somewhere in me. Like I have a very deep, deep spiritual

sense from very early childhood. I, I, I have my own conversations with God. Like I have this belief that God is

inside me. And I think that's kind of got me through.

[00:14:32] Hecate: Yeah.

No,

I, I agree with you and I, I relate to that as well. Like, I, uh, have experienced in my, in my own self, in my own healing journey, a sense of, um, some kind of resilience.

[00:14:46] Kalpa: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:47] Hecate: And a sense of, um, of a, a light, uh, and you know, that some would be uncomfortable with me calling it God, but I also believe that God is everything [00:15:00] and, and thus is in me.

And, you know, and that sense of resilience and, uh, and like a light that is precious within me, and, uh, determined to not let that go out and being willing to fight for myself and, uh, and keep that, uh, keep that safe or do whatever I have to do to, to allow it to, to shine the way that it's meant to. And

yeah.

[00:15:25] Kalpa: Yeah. And I'll add one more thing, back to your question.

[00:15:27] Hecate: Yeah.

[00:15:27] Kalpa: Helped me the most. Um, I remember being suicidal when I was in my teens, right? I never took like, action or anything. But now as I've done the work,

um, I remember say like, maybe

I was 18, 19 or six 17, like, I don't even remember, but there

was a period where I was like, how am I living?

Like,

what am I doing? Like, doesn't make sense. Like,

and I always had this yearning for like running away, just exploring the world and like travel is big for me. So, um, I think

part of [00:16:00] what I knew, and I can't remember what happened exactly, but something happened that, that, that made

me realize, um, life was a gift.

Life was a gift. Um,

and, and not actually now I remember, it wasn't until

like then. It was

when I moved to the US I met with a car accident. Right?

[00:16:19] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:20] Kalpa: And, um, we totally, yeah, we totalled the car. It was one of the, I, I won't say I had trauma from it, but I always, at some point I had wished that, oh, I wanna die.

And I remember

meeting with the car

accident. I was in grad school here, and my husband was so frantic and 9 1 1 came and, you know, some, the, the other, there was another party involved, but nothing happened to me. Right? My idea of, uh, even if the, the, you know, minuscule part that were there about like suicidal thoughts or life, I don't wanna live this life or like that, those were gone, you know?

[00:16:57] Hecate: Yeah.

[00:16:59] Kalpa: So, so [00:17:00] I think part of what, what shifted for me, like what has got me through, is that I believe on life. Like, I believe life is a gift and I believe in karma, and I believe we all are here to do something, and learn something in this lifetime.

And that keeps us going.

Keeps me going.

[00:17:17] Hecate: Yeah.

So you have a sense of purpose.

[00:17:22] Kalpa: I do.

[00:17:22] Hecate: Can I ask, um, if, if you're comfortable, like what is your

purpose?

[00:17:28] Kalpa: My

purpose is to help sexually abused children and women claim power, live with joy, and create a kinder world. There's nothing, nothing more that I would like if I were to die, um, 10 years from now. Um, I hope more and more people show up and this, you know, like the statistic once I heard, read somewhere, average age at which people share their childhood sexual abuse stories is 52 years old if they ever share.

Right?

[00:17:57] Hecate: Yeah.

[00:17:58] Kalpa: Many a times they don't [00:18:00] share.

[00:18:00] Hecate: Yeah.

[00:18:01] Kalpa: So, uh, and it's like people like take their stories to their grave.

For what? For something that was not their fault. Right? So,

and, and part of it is also like the way I think. We somehow, like, you know when somebody's abused, we

feel like they're broken or it's some something sh you

know,

of shame or stigma talking about.

And I, I think as a society we also make it like worse, not talking about it, just not talking about it doesn't mean that it

doesn't exist. You know, if adults can't come forward and talk, how do you expect this problem to be broken? And this is, if, if we don't break the cycle at home, how do you expect those abusers go and show and um, show up in their own lives outside, right?

[00:18:46] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:46] Kalpa: And, and many a times,

um, abusers themselves might have been some

kind of, you know, suffered some abuse, who knows? Emotional, uh, not, not to justify the action.

[00:18:56] Hecate: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:57] Kalpa: There are different types of people who [00:19:00] abuse and part, and 90% of the cases in childhood sexual abuse people are, these are people that you know. They're related and, or, you know, uh, at least your, the adults who are supposed to be your caregivers, they trust them.

Or sometimes it's the caregiver, it's a sibling. So if we don't talk about these problems, bigger problems at home, guess what? We get a world created by mistrust, where we are not trusting and we are looking for safety externally. It's so easy to go out on, you know, social media platforming and get, get mad.

It's so easy to go and attack another country. It's so easy to, you know, do harm. And you, because your sense of home and safety is not there.

[00:19:39] Hecate: Yeah.

It

takes, it takes work to preserve life and make a better world and solve problems and heal deep wounds, but it's very much worth it. Yeah. And I, yeah, I 100% agree with you, uh, with the, the silence and the stigma.

And I'm a big believer [00:20:00] that, um, of course it's everyone's choice when and if they disclose, uh, you know, that is always up to everybody. But ultimately, um, you know, if I'm talking in terms of the bigger picture, like I'm a big believer that the silence and the stigma and like, don't talk about it. This is taboo.

Let's not mm, let's just not discuss it. That that is, uh, something that perpetuates the issue and something that ultimately just benefits the perpetrators. Uh, and perpetuates the systems of oppression that are at work and, uh, and ultimately enables and perpetuates the violence. Um, and, uh, you know, when I.

When I started to disclose and talk about things openly, like I really kind of battled with, with that silence and that stigma and that fear. And then ultimately there was the realization that [00:21:00] my silence, uh, it really only did my abusers a favor. And that's kind of, you know, when, when you kind of blow that up into the, into the big picture, it's kind of like, ah, this is, this is the system.

This is the system and how it works. Um, it thrives, uh, in, in silence and in darkness. And that tattoo, that taboo only, uh, is only helping it continue. Um, so I'm excited that. We are all speaking about it more openly and that people like you are shining a light into dark places and, uh, and bringing this conversation, especially into the corporate world where this definitely needs to, to be talked about.

I love that you're doing trauma-informed work, uh, and that you are looking to create trauma-informed practices in business. Um, I'm thrilled

to be talking to you,

honestly. Um, yeah.

[00:21:59] Kalpa: Part of what, [00:22:00] um, you said something I wanna touch upon that like, you know, the, the shame thrives in like silence sometimes, right?

Um, and, and, and. I wanna double down on that. Like people, I'm not saying that if you, if you are in an unsafe space and

you fear for life and,

um,

you don't have financial, you know, support and means and things that you go out and just announce to the world where no, that's, I'm not giving that advice. It's always a choice.

It's always a choice. And for me, I think

eventually

what helped me, I go, I got to the place of where the thing that happened. It is a thing that happened. In trauma what happens is it's is what it, what there's a thing that

happened, there's the external

thing and then, then how we internalize.

[00:22:52] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:53] Kalpa: So when you separate those three, that's when you can realize, oh, this is a thing that happened, but

what did I [00:23:00] learn from that?

And it's not, not learned from it that I

needed. That thing did need to happen for me to learn. Maybe there would've been something else that would've happened, I would've learned. So it's for me, It's a been a reflection of what have I taken from that, right? What have I learned? Like, where are my life lessons?

And some coping mechanisms

work. Like silence,

people pleasing,

hyper vigilance,

control. It absolutely worked, you know, and which is why I thrived in my corporate life, right? Externally, a lot of people say, oh, you've done

well. And, and, and some,

you know, and then there be some part where I haven't done so well.

Um, but it's, it's recognizing that, you know, that silence. And then now that I

have done all that work, I share, because for me, I remember my therapist giving me the permission that, Hey, if you don't want to share with anybody, don't share. So I don't think the first round of therapy that I did, I told anybody.

And the second time around it was important because I knew this was my purpose. Because I, I, I was like, Hey, [00:24:00] if I, if me being in my mid thirties having so much financial success, being a mom, having a supportive partner, having a good like family, whatever that good family meant, you know, if I can't say this, how are other people going to be able to say this?

And in business, if we have all the power, how do I feel so powerless in this aspect? Right? So I think part of, um, it's important to recognize that and, um, that there is a journey, right, for everybody.

[00:24:27] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:27] Kalpa: But when you do, for our listeners, when if you want to share, right? You need to be clear on what is the purpose and then also, Be in a space to hold a space for other people because not everybody's going to react to you the way you want.

And that's been my learning. And um, and, and that's, that's basically has helped me define my own boundaries of, of

[00:24:52] Hecate: mm-hmm.

[00:24:53] Kalpa: When I share how I share and then also do my own inner spiritual work.

[00:24:58] Hecate: Can I

ask, [00:25:00] um, so you, so you first started to disclose in your mid

thirties?

[00:25:04] Kalpa: So I had, I knew a couple of people

who were also abused in my early childhood.

Right. And, but then beyond that, I, I had almost shrugged it and I didn't, it's like never to be talked about. And I tried

telling a friend I remember in my twenties, but their response at the time felt like, Um, this was my fault. Oh. I played into it. Right? So it's, it's, and perception is projection. You know, I was getting a lot of judgment from me.

Like, trust me, I questioned all my life. Oh, did I? Why did I not run away? Why did I not tell anybody? Or it must be something is wrong with me because it kept repeating with me. Right. So, so I didn't tell start telling, like, um, and then for a number of years, silence, nothing. So, yes, in my mid thirties then I started like, uh, working through, uh, in my therapy and starting to share

[00:25:56] Hecate: mm-hmm.

[00:25:57] Kalpa: Even my closed a loved ones.

[00:25:59] Hecate: Mm-hmm. [00:26:00]

Are you

comfortable sharing a little bit of your story?

[00:26:04] Kalpa: Yeah,

sure. So, um, I was, I experienced, um, sexual abuse,

um, since my early memories, like

three or four years old. I don't remember exactly what age it started. Um, and it went on till about my early 20, I would say.

Um, so over a period of, um, many years by different people including a couple of uncles extended family, um, my, um, a teacher, a cousin uh, now I'm losing track even, right? So,

um, I, yeah, and it was, um, you know, the, the why I'm sharing is at, at some point,

these, these things had a hold over me. Now they don't.

Now it's almost like, yes, that thing happened. And, and through the course of that, um, you know, experience, um, I

realized, and I've had conversations [00:27:00] even when I shared

with my husband probably about a year ago, and my rest of my family, I've had conversations with my abusers who are alive. Um, some of them are alive, some of them are gone.

Um, I've had those conversations and um, I had to come to a space where, um, I knew no matter how they respond, um, I, to claim my power, I needed to have that conversation. And that doesn't, so, so that's been my story. Right. Um, and um, the other thing I would add there is

many people don't have conversations with their abusers.

Many people don't even, um, you know, start to

talk about it until abusers are gone. Or some, in some cases, uh, you know, these are abusers who are really close ones in your family, right? So,

[00:27:54] Hecate: mm-hmm.

[00:27:55] Kalpa: So in my case, thankfully when I shared with my family, uh, they [00:28:00] were very supportive.

I remember one time my mom was like, Hey, at this age you could have run away, right? And I, I basically, my response to my mom is, mom, you know, like, uh, I. Trust me. That thought came to me many times, but I wasn't mad at my mom, right? Because what I learned is my mom herself was a survivor and she hadn't told anybody like

[00:28:20] Hecate: mm-hmm.

[00:28:21] Kalpa: So when I started sharing my own family, uh, she had, she realized she had repressed memories. And when, pretty much when, as I've started sharing my family, 50% of my family has experienced childhood sexual abuse. And I will tell you that my family is not alone. Many a times people don't know their family of origin stories.

And this just continues. Right? And which is part of the reason a lot of the times, like, um, the, the stories are shrugged under the carpet, right? In the US one in four girls, one in six boys experience abuse before they turn 18 years of age. Every nine minutes a child is abused in US. That these are documented stats.[00:29:00]

In India, it's, I think every 15 minutes. Um, but I believe the numbers are under reported, um, globally, um, have had conversations with folks in Australia, New Zealand, UK globally, I think, I believe one in four adults have experienced childhood sexual abuse at some point.

[00:29:17] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:18] Kalpa: So you talked about, asked about my experience, but you know, that's, that's what's been my learning, you know, through my own sharing with my family and, um, what I've learned.

[00:29:31] Hecate: Yeah.

And I wanna add a statistic that, um, about 50% of gender nonconforming individuals, so transgender and non-binary individuals, uh, about 50% probably over that, um, have experienced, uh, sexual abuse in their life. And Yes. Yeah. It's the, the numbers are staggering. This is an [00:30:00] epidemic, and it does, uh, there are cycles in, in families, uh, and it's, it's one of those things where, um, You know, it's, it's always, uh, kind of surreal talking to someone who thinks that their life is completely untouched by this.

Um, because I promise it's not, I, I I promise it's not,

[00:30:27] Kalpa: um, it, it,

it's surreal. I mean, I'll tell you like, so I've done surveys, um, in some of the forums that I've spoken, and thank you for adding that statistic. I mean, it's so, um, you know, I think gender nonconforming folks and, uh, trans

people,

like they experience additional layer of complexity.

They don't get the support even in families. And sometimes, you know, you have economically disadvantaged, um, you know, under

advantaged standpoint.

[00:30:53] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:53] Kalpa: Right. Uh, because

our, uh, societies are designed

for some reason, I feel like in particularly in the last

200, 300 [00:31:00] years, it's kind of gone differently because in the past there was no such.

At least from coming from the eastern kind of cultures, like, you know, there was a gender spectrum, like we might not say, like we've seen those things in our historical, like, you know, mycology or in our, you know, um, text sort things, right?

[00:31:17] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:17] Kalpa: So there's a masculine energy, there's a feminine energy, but there's so much of this toxic, you know, masculinity or either you're a man or a woman, or a, these things are relatively, I think, uh, a way for organization like societies to find structure that are easy to like, explain and uphold in courts.

Like, you know, it's a totally d different discussion from another day. But that those, those things have actually

sometimes means

that people are, if I don't feel you've fit in that category, you can't belong to my place. And if you don't belong to that place, whether it's a work or economic opportunity

[00:31:52] Hecate: mm-hmm.

[00:31:53] Kalpa: You greater chance of being, you know, sexually abused. Because some of those things, again, in brothels or other sex work, these [00:32:00] things thrive, right? Yeah.

[00:32:02] Hecate: Well, and I, I, I agree it's a conversation for another day, but I'm always moved to just straight up say, for, for folks that aren't aware, the gender binary is a racist, uh, colonial thing that has been enacted as a form of violence upon other cultures.

So that's, if you're listening, look it up.

[00:32:25] Kalpa: Yeah.

[00:32:27] Hecate: But yeah. Um, I'm very curious how those conversations with, uh, or not necessarily conversations, but um, communicating with your abusers. Uh, if you're comfortable talking about that in any regard, um, I know that that's something that a lot of survivors struggle with, whether they should do that.

Uh, a lot of curiosity about what that might look like or how, how it feels for different people or if they should, if they shouldn't. Um, and just, uh, I it's a [00:33:00] very big, scary, confusing question. So

[00:33:03] Kalpa: It, it is, and, and, uh, the short answer is, um, only that person who has experienced abuse, you,

you get to decide that.

And, and that, that what you want to do that may vary as you process your trauma and heal, right?

[00:33:20] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:20] Kalpa: So for me, it wasn't the very first day when I said, Hey, I'm gonna go and tell, like, you suck. You know? Like I'm all those thought were there, right? I mean, part of me, like, uh, a la a large part of my life was probably in fear because I would see them in social circles, weddings, or in, you know, when I would go visit the family or when we are talking in our family.

And, uh, um, so it wasn't day one. I think some of it started with, uh, one of them passed away and I felt like a deep sense of like relief, but also like a really different mixed feelings, you know, a, a strange sense of compassion also, like, and what [00:34:00] their life would've been.

So, I, I would

say for me it was, uh, It was, a lot of it is like writing letters.

I remember when I started on the start reading Book of Forgiving by Desmond Tutu and, uh, his daughter, I'm, I'm drawing a blank right now, the, the other name, but Book of Forgiving. And one of the exercises was write those letters and basically, uh, you forgiver venting all your emotions and, and like pick some stones from the garden.

And, and I might not be recollecting it fully, but picking up stones and holding it like in your hand, right? And then, uh, walking around and see like holding and seeing like how heavy you feel and at some point just let go and put it back in the garden or somewhere, keep away. And I resonated with that because it felt like, and I, I haven't told anybody, so I used to lock the door in my office and I would do all these things periodically, right?

I would write, I would write, I would write. And um, and,

uh,

And eventually I got to a [00:35:00] point where initially I started with probably about 26 people in my life, right? Uh, which was crazy because, and this, this is not just sexual abuse. This was like anything, anybody who's hurt me ever before, I had, I felt like a charge at that point.

Right? So I got to the place of sharing with the abusers because I basically, that story just like changed.

I'm like, I'm tired. At one point I got tired. I'm like, come

on, this happened like so long ago. Like, what, what, what does it mean for me now? Like, what, what do I want to learn from this? Right? So, What, what lessons have I taken in my life?

Right? So the, my first thing, this person, I talked about some of the patterns which I realized were not serving me. Like how I was showing up, not believing in me, not trusting in me, like asking for things, but like almost expecting the other

person to reject it, you know? So I would ask with that energy, right?

So eventually when I did a lot of the spiritual work, and I got to a [00:36:00] point where I felt like that conversation was important, not for,

not for like, like it has it, the forgiveness has nothing to do with the,

you know, the abuser. It has everything to do

with me, right?

[00:36:16] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:16] Kalpa: That the story, like I, I came

to this epiphany

that, you know, once

I tell the story and once I forgive them, I would have

no excuse

for me on why I am choosing every single day to recreate that drama in my life.

[00:36:33] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:34] Kalpa: And I, it might sound an extreme form for somebody who's really still in

that feeling like a victim. Right? And, and, and then I'm not saying that they're not victims, but

being in that mindset of like, it is because of that person that even in my fifties and sixties and seventies, I'm suffering, or like

I'm, I'm sucking at this relationship or, you know. But once you realize that thing happened, right?

And

yes, it's hard, it's there, but [00:37:00] they have no power over you. Right? So in my case that I got to that point, and that's why I had the conversation. My experience was in one case, this

person probably is in his fifties and I simply walked up to, my grandmother died earlier this year so when I was in India, I saw them and I walked up to um, them and I said, Hey, I remember what happened and I want you to know that I forgive you and you have no power over me and I hope you've learned, I hope you are well, and you take actions to correct the thing.

And the, in that moment.

[00:37:34] Hecate: Wow.

[00:37:35] Kalpa: That person literally wanted to run away. They, they just looked at said, and that they told, I said my name.

They said, look, I'm, I'm not that person. I've changed.

And they were like scared. Like I could, I could feel that like, cuz they didn't expect that, right?

Um, and I, I just, I, I simply just had to do it.

And I don't know what happened. Um, I know, um, in another case I called [00:38:00] them, um, uh, in

another, with another abuser and they said they have gone down their own path of like spiritual journey, but. Whether I completely believe or not. For me, it was also important that, you know, as an abuser, that they forgive themselves and they do the work.

Be responsible to tell that story and take that learning because part of,

you know, it doesn't serve anybody to keep secrets

and like

stay, like some

people belong in jail, like, because we can't deal with them. Right? Um, but most

often, like sometimes you've made one mistake as a

teenager or you were exploring or you know, you didn't know anything better.

I mean, I can go, there are so many other explanations, or maybe you, you were not even, they were not even doing this thing to me. There was something going on in their life and they acted.

There are all kinds of things, um, you

know, possible

explanations. Um, for me

it didn't matter what their reasons were, really for me.

Cause I knew my life, my life. Like, I was [00:39:00] tired of like having those same stories, like be their reason to be a certain way in life. I wanted freedom. I wanted no, no more secrets in my life. No more like, uh, easy conversations, no more like trying to fix myself. Right? That's what I wanted. So I, I chose to have those conversations.

[00:39:22] Hecate: Wow?

[00:39:22] Kalpa: At least with a, with, with a couple of people that I was able to, yeah.

[00:39:29] Hecate: Can you talk a little bit about what forgiveness means to you or how you define forgiveness or, um, what it

feels like for you?

[00:39:40] Kalpa: Yeah, so from

a sexual abuse perspective, I would say, I'm very clear on that. In some of the other areas, it's a constant struggle.

Some things come up and then you're like, I'm still getting stuck in shame, blame, and guilt, so I have to work on me. Right? So from a sexual abuse perspective, uh, with all the people, uh, and, and I don't think there's any [00:40:00] difference by the way, across different categories, right? Forgiveness really means that being truly responsible for my life, right?

[00:40:08] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:09] Kalpa: That and forgiveness, to get to the forgiveness you might feel all the anger. You have to go underneath that what, acknowledge what happened first of all, right? And acknowledge like what you lost in that, right? Or what is that sense of like, whether, is it the trust, whether it is that, you know, that you, you are never the same again.

You started becoming, you know, um, like hypervigilant, like looking, you know, looking for problems, fears, and trying to, being in survival mode. So I have, you have to acknowledge all of those things that you lost versus being that free spirited child who was like simply exploring the world. So once you explore that and do the work, then it becomes that, hey wait

a second,

I'm still that person.

Where [00:41:00] is that person?

That person is inside me. And you know what? Despite everything that has happened, they haven't been able

to touch that soul. So once you get to that space, I believe you can forgive, I believe, but I don't know which one comes first, honestly, right?

[00:41:16] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:17] Kalpa: Each person has their, their own process.

And, and, and for me it's, uh, it's been a journey over several years.

[00:41:27] Hecate: Thank you for talking about that. I know, I know forgiveness is like a very touchy subject for, uh, for everybody on their healing journey. And, uh, and everyone has very different opinions and, uh, you know, for some people it holds a place in, in their healing journey.

Some people maybe not, like, everyone's got something different to say about it, so I really appreciate you talking about it and, and sharing your, your journey with

1. Um.

[00:41:51] Kalpa: Also add forgiveness has, uh, doesn't mean that you are absolving

other people of their crimes or, [00:42:00] you know, heinous things that they might have done, right?

[00:42:01] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:02] Kalpa: Um, yeah. I, I think a lot of, sometimes when there's

resistance, I feel forgiveness is confused with,

Hey, here's the thing that happened, right?

[00:42:15] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:16] Kalpa: What is the other person's responsibility? It forgiveness doesn't mean you take responsibility for like, everything, it doesn't. It simply means you, you are being responsible for your life moving forward.

[00:42:27] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

Thank you for clarifying that, cuz that is the, like that sticking point with forgiveness for a lot of people is the feeling that you are saying like, I don't hold you responsible anymore, or I don't think this was wrong anymore, or something like that. Um, so it's, I appreciate the clarification. Um, what have you struggled the most with in healing?

[00:42:52] Kalpa: Three areas.

Um, intimacy, um, repairing my,

uh, attachment with my mother, [00:43:00] right? And

then as a mom, um, with my child. So it's a more like intimacy, your relationship, intimacy relationship as well as like the caregiver wounds and then how I am breaking that cycle with my son.

[00:43:12] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:12] Kalpa: And these are like the three most closest relationships that I have.

And that is where these things show up because, you know, part of the healing is also. Learning to establish boundaries. Right? And as you learn established boundaries, you realize that so much of, because of the trauma that we had in our family with my mom and me, like how we were like, like,

like so for example,

I, I always saw my mom very happy.

Hey, she constantly like doing things happy, smiling, like working till late. And she was this superwoman growing up as I felt right. And at some point, like people would say

so many mean things and she would be like, you know, what's the point of like, you know, me

being educated if I react to people?

Right? And I would be like, like aggravated.

I'm like,

mom,

you [00:44:00] cannot take up like, you know, bad people saying some wrong things because my dad was complete extreme, right? He was very open and he

was, he would, like, I learned so much from my dad too, like being like, you know, very confident, very independent, right? And go getter. And my mom was

the same way, but at the same time, I saw the clash of

personalities in terms of like the, the, the people pleasers and then the men, you know, and which is I think true for many societies, like, you know, women and men, right?

So for me, um, as I've gone through my own healing with my own healing, my mom, I've, I've learned, set like healthy boundaries with my mom as well. And that has been challenging for her too, because I'm that person who picks up the call and calls her every day, right? Because at some point I also didn't want to be the one where, um, I don't speak to her one day and she's gone and I don't like, I regret, right?

So, so for me it's been like, okay, you know, uh, if I am [00:45:00] talking to everybody every day. And my, I have work and I'm a mom and I'm building my business and you know, I want, I'm build, working on my intimacy. I'm showing up in the world in a bigger way. There are sometimes some conversations I don't need to have with everybody, you know, so, so with my mom, it's been about, hey, uh, like you have a choice, mom.

Like, sometimes it's, it's, so again, this is not a podcast for my mom, but I think it's relevant for many other people because we all struggle with the boundaries, with the closest one. Does that help?

[00:45:31] Hecate: It does. No, thank you for talking about that. I think, uh, I think a lot of us struggle with boundaries, and it's true.

The closer, the closer that people are to us, uh, the more difficult it is. And especially your, your close family members, especially people you've grown up with. Um, you know, like if you are raised with a certain kind of boundaries, um, you know, or lack of boundaries, then inserting them or creating them, um, in that, in that relationship and changing the dynamic, [00:46:00] um, it can be, it can be quite a struggle.

And, you know, in, in a relationship where there have been no boundaries, um, suddenly putting up boundaries to that other person, it can feel like an attack.

[00:46:14] Kalpa: Yeah.

[00:46:14] Hecate: Uh, it's very difficult.

[00:46:16] Kalpa: Yeah. The other part, uh, as you were talking about in setting the boundaries and, you know, healing is, you know, sometimes people pleasing and there are other people who are completely extreme megalomaniacs, right?

These are all separate

forms of control. Right? So sometimes we are like,

[00:46:31] Hecate: mm-hmm.

[00:46:32] Kalpa: We are like, oh, they're

so nice. But, you know, by being nice, we are trying to control

the reaction for everybody. And he, here's another way, people

are being demeaning, that they're trying to control the outcome. So once

you realize that these are two separate ways of control, and you realize, holy cow, like, what am I doing?

Like, am I, like, why do I need to always smile if I'm not happy?

[00:46:53] Hecate: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:53] Kalpa: Why do I, like, it's a different thing. I'm, I'm a joyous person. I'm joyful, you know, some things don't bother me. I'm I'll, I'll smile, I'll [00:47:00] be centered, but if I don't feel like smiling, I don't, I won't.

[00:47:03] Hecate: Yeah.

[00:47:04] Kalpa: So

I think these are very subtle points, but I, I feel like, um,

those are the things that I have had to learn the most, like establishing those boundaries.

[00:47:18] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:18] Kalpa: And, and establishing that sense of who I am, you know, without all these beliefs that, that I had learned, you know?

[00:47:24] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

And

where have you found strength and support?

[00:47:35] Kalpa: There's so many, so many ways. You know, so

many ways. I mean, I, I feel blessed every day. Like I have a very supportive family, like with my husband, with my son, with my extended family. Like, I, I, uh, in some ways, you know, part of it is also, I think it's my inner strength. Like the more I believe and I show up, um, other people also are there, cuz I believe people are perfectly capable [00:48:00] of evolving and growing with you.

And sometimes we, we have judgment for other people that they can't meet our standards, so they can't be with us, they can't fulfill our needs that we don't even ask for support. Right? So it's been, I think it's my community, but at the same time, the, the trust in me asking for what I need and reaching out all these

things have helped me really create my own, uh, uh, family of choice. Like, uh mm, different tribes, community friends that I'm part of. I'm a, I'm a relationship builder. Um, I'm, I, I thrive on relationships, connections, and, and I don't like shallow conversations. So, so part of where, that's where I've got the support. But part of that, uh, also has meant that there are some people who were there for a reason or a season, but they have no space in my life right now.

[00:48:52] Hecate: Yeah.

I love that you included yourself in, uh, in, in that support. That's a really beautiful answer and [00:49:00] it's just so appreciate it. In our tech call, we touched upon epigenetic trauma just a little bit, so I wanted to make space to, to kind of ask, and again, if, if you're not really in the, in the head space, uh, to have this conversation today, that's totally okay.

Um, and you know, it can, whatever limits you wanna put on it also okay. But I do wanna make space, um,

to

ask what role race, or racism, or epigenetic trauma has played in your life or in your healing?

[00:49:34] Kalpa: So, you know, until the murder of George Floyd. Right. I didn't even think what I experienced in my corporate

life was any form of like, racism.

Right? Because part of me was like, okay, people, and I had exp I had, I grew up in an area where we were minority, so I've always felt like a person that who didn't belong. [00:50:00] And I had to learn another language. I, I am multilingual, like I speak three languages, which is very common by the way, outside of US for folks, right?

So

[00:50:07] Hecate: It is.

[00:50:09] Kalpa: Right? So for me, like

the accent, how you speak and, uh, you know, it's like, so part of life, right? And everybody's unique. But what I realized, uh, so my story when I moved here and I worked through was, Hey, you, you've gotta work hard, suck it up, and just, there's so much, so many problems you have, you have all these opportunities, make good youth.

But what I realized is, um, the, the, the racism and, you know, microaggressions and things, they take a toll on people, right? Um, so there's a study that was done, um, on adverse childhood experiences back in the nineties by C D C and Kaiser Permanente. And the, this, they found there are three areas of abuse, right?

So the, sorry, three areas. Um, abuse, neglect, and family dysfunction, right? So this was done on 17,000 [00:51:00] plus Caucasian, uh, families and middle class, what you would think.

What was interesting is ACEs are very common. What's uncommon is,

you know, if you have four or more ACEs, you are much more likely to have developed, you know, mental health issues like depression and suicidal plots.

And there was a similar study then that was later done to

include, um, uh, you know, some of the area people that have been victims of, you know, racism, bullying, and other type of, you know, societal aggressions, if you will. Right?

[00:51:37] Hecate: Yeah.

[00:51:37] Kalpa: And that

study, what was interesting

when you compare the results that

communities that are marginalized they are

many more times now, you

know, likely to experience ACEs, right? Because of that,

right? Because of that additional, you know?

[00:51:54] Hecate: Yeah.

[00:51:55] Kalpa: So what that means is that health outcomes,

um, the brain's wiring, [00:52:00] you know, like all of

these, these are so different

when you look closely based on whether somebody had abuse, neglect, or cha uh, you know, family dysfunction or additional, you know, community violence.

Right? Which trans folks might, you know, uh, and I'm not aware of the study specifically on that, if it was included, but I, I suspect that it's, uh, such a study was done, we would find a whole nother layer of, you know, complexity. So, um, this is to say that these things are real, right? And when you, when you overlay all of these, um, you know, sources

of trauma, um, there's research, there's a book on, you

know, um, uh, Body Keeps the Score, right, which talks about war, and this is one of my favorite books,

um, um, for, for

understanding trauma.

There are books. There are books

by, you know, Dr. Peter Levine, like, uh, Waking the Tiger. Um, there's so much like work

done, like trauma actually changes our brains wiring, like permanently, right? [00:53:00] So you can, the, and there, and let me make that clear. You may have, you know, additional, uh, so for example, in my case, a lot of the things were going well, right?

Like I had a good family. Food and not, that was not a problem. I had other good role models, you know, I had other opportunities. So I was able to find some gifts in life along with some of the gaps that I had in my life, right? So

not everybody. So once

you have those gifts and you know, we start thinking, developing new habits, we start reaching

out.

We start, once

we become aware, it, it is possible to get, create new wirings, you know, in our brain, right? But a lot. But unless we are aware, like our bodies are sometimes stuck in that trauma. So unless, you know, we become aware, our mind, our bodies like completely different spaces and spiritually we are not even connected.

So now I almost forgot what the question was, but you know, these, these, [00:54:00] the healing and the epigenetics, right? They, they do play a role. Yeah.

[00:54:04] Hecate: Yeah, I'm, I've been making notes, um, as, as you've been talking for all the things that I'm going to include in episode notes. So be able to link people to the ACE, uh, research and, you know, have a thing so that they can, you know, find an explanation of what that is.

Maybe check into, oh, where, how many do I have? Because it's, it's a great thing to be aware of. Um, cuz it surprises a lot of us, um, like actually going through that ACE checklist and thinking, oh, that did affect me. I did experience that. Um, and, uh, and as especially, uh, you know, so often as we're growing up, we, um, you know, especially sometimes in, uh, you know, in, in an abusive or or difficult environment, um, the privileges that we do experience, um, they are held up to us so strongly.

You know, say, see, you have this and you have this, and you have [00:55:00] this, what do you. What's wrong? What could you possibly have to cry about? Like, and, uh, you know, and not recognizing all these, you know, insidious things that are occurring kind of under the surface. Um, and especially if, if you are in a society that doesn't want you to notice that you are being oppressed, um, you know, or you know that if there's violence that is being enacted upon you on a systemic level, uh, that no one really wants you to talk about.

Um, so yeah. But also the books that you mentioned, I'll be, I'll be listing those so that uh, people can check them out as well.

Yeah,

[00:55:40] Kalpa: yeah. I'll, I'll send you the list as well. I think I have some

blogs where I've listed, um, some of the books that I highly, highly recommend. Um, but when you talk about the oppressed, you

know, the systemic level issues and the

personal, I think a lot of the focus we talked about earlier was more personal.

And I think it becomes all the more important personally, [00:56:00] to take care because of these systemic, uh, issues. Right? Because, uh, don't get me wrong, like systemic issues are there and there'll always be some systemic issues. I wish the world, I, I wish, you know, it was easier to say we would all have perfect world.

If not this, there would be some other problem. It's just the nature of life. So, um, to be able to do the systemic work, right? It's super important. And we do that inner work, and personal work to be able to navigate because these changes do take time.

[00:56:26] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:27] Kalpa: Right now what we are seeing, you know, it, it's

not an accident that Kalpa

or similar people like are coming up and sharing their stories, you know, generationally like, you know, I think that Me Too few years ago and pandemic people are questioning a lot of the things are, um, not working.

You know, that the, sometimes the abuse oppressed might have been stuck at home, you know?

[00:56:49] Hecate: Yeah.

[00:56:49] Kalpa: So, And so without any

connection or recourse. So I think a lot of these stories are coming up and we've started seeing the stories more from a corporate environment and now slowly some of [00:57:00] the personal stories.

Alright, so you, I believe this is like, we are in that la cusp of a lifetime for, for the next hundred years. The workplaces, the, you know, the, our family lives and everything. We need to shift where we incorporate a lot of the feminine and a lot of that energy to be able to create a space that works for many people, right?

[00:57:21] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:21] Kalpa: So, so the discussion that you and I are having, um, it becomes even more important that people become aware from ACE or, you know, just going through that study and it has like 10, to your point, like 10 checklists. When I saw it for the first time when I, I was a volunteer, uh, for foster kids, I was like, wow.

And then I went down, there's a beautiful type talk by Dr. Nadine Harris, and she has a book Deepest Well, which also talks about some of the health outcomes on, on, on, on the ACEs. So highly, highly recommend people going through, uh, if one thing you want to take away from this call is just be aware of your ACEs.

[00:57:58] Hecate: Yeah.

[00:57:58] Kalpa: Um, and [00:58:00] aware. And, and, and be aware. But that is where your work should stop from using the label. Because we sometimes get stuck in that identity. Right? Be aware that it happened to you and now you do the work and then move on. And that move on doesn't mean quickly. I became aware and hey, I forgiven.

But be aware, awareness is the first step.

[00:58:23] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

Yeah. No, and I love that, that you mentioned that as well. You know, just kind of identify, uh, you know, and then don't get stuck in, I identify, I am this, this is what I am forever. And, you know, to be able to, to transcend that and move forward. And, uh, yeah, I kind of relate that to, um, uh, there's, I've, I've had so many interesting conversations, uh, at various points with, with other survivors in my life about a certain point of healing.

Um, that's really difficult [00:59:00] to talk about, which is, um, uh, and it is also really difficult when you are dealing with people who aren't survivors in your life, um, who are maybe noticing the way that you are experiencing, experiencing or, um, articulating certain things or maybe acting as you are doing healing work.

And one thing that comes up is, um, is when you are really acknowledging like, Hey, this happened to me. And really feeling it and being able to identify like, uh, this was wrong, this was an assault, or this was an, you know, an abusive situation and I am a victim of such and such. And then there's, I think, this really normal place where you get stuck for a little bit, which is, um, that I, I, I am a victim or I was a victim.

Um, and that's really hard to, it. It's really [01:00:00] uncomfortable. For all of us, uh, in so many different ways. And then there is an empowering stepping outside that and no longer being kind of stuck in that, um, that victim mode, uh, where you are that person that things happen to, um, you know, where that, you know, people hurt you.

And, you know, it's easy to, to get stuck in, in that mode, especially if you've experienced childhood abuse, um, where this is a pattern that's been present throughout so much of your formative years. And then exiting that and finding, you know, whether it's identifying with the term like "survivor" or whatever it means to, uh, to become empowered to exit that, that kind of, uh, like victim headspace and um, and just move out of that a little bit and change, uh, your narrative or the stories that you tell about yourself, the stories that you tell you about you.

So,

I'm [01:01:00] sorry.

[01:01:01] Kalpa: No, I, I totally, we could geek out on

that. I was listening to this

podcast the other day by Ezra Klein and I, I can't remember the, the who the author is. She's amazing. And they were talking about how for, um,

it's more in a particularly East European situation I think they were talking about, I'm completely drawing a blank exactly what context, but one of the, the, the, it was about the stories

sometimes we talk about Survivor or, Hey, I was this victim. Is

we at attach, we, we think that is, or if I'm a

mental, if I have mental illness, that that is my identity, right? And then I am this, and my future is predicted and this is what I am. Right? Because, so the, the, the caution we need to draw there, right,

is in some cases, yes, this, this may be true, but which means that you have certain conditions and there may be different ways of managing that. And it may be possible though from a free will perspective to shift some things. Right? So [01:02:00] the labels go only so far as really acknowledging that, oh, this damage was done right, or this incident happened.

[01:02:07] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:08] Kalpa: And this is why I am the way I am wired, which means that, oh, it is, I may need these additional things to be in a certain way. So, and again, mental illness completely different than, you know, sexual abuse and all like, I wanna be very clear, I'm not, I'm not talking from a medical like advice perspective, but it's just the stories, you know, the stories we tell, and sometimes the stories can be empowering.

Other times the stories can keep us stuck forever in that space. And it's really the stories that move our life forward. So really being aware of what stories we are carrying about our identities.

[01:02:43] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:44] Kalpa: You know, as, as people that have experienced trauma or certain events.

[01:02:50] Hecate: Yeah. Big difference between I have this wound versus I am this wound.

That's difficult. Yeah. Um, [01:03:00]

let me check back in with my notes.

Um, so I'd like to ask you, uh, what role does spirituality play in your healing? Uh, and invite you to share a little bit about your meditation practice, which you've

mentioned.

[01:03:16] Kalpa: Sure. So spirituality

has played like many different roles, like as of now, right?

I start

my day, um, sometime in the morning first half. I, I, I invest 30 minutes in meditation. That includes two or three different various combinations of meditations. But one is, um, uh, uh, guided meditation that, um, I was part of spirit, of Brahma Kumaris. Um, Uh, spiritual community. Um, and they, during pandemic, one of my friends introduced me to them, and then I went through some Raj Yoga, some practices.

And the, the thing that has stayed with me is that one of the videos is like around 15 minutes. I, I listen to that every morning. And along with that, there are two other meditations I do from Chani app. This [01:04:00] is an app for like astrology, but I find that beau, the, the, the meditations like to be beautiful and I need, I, I'm a person who likes something guided because if I'm sitting, I, sometimes I will just fall asleep.

And my, I, I have a very active mind, right? So I, I, so those things have worked for me and I've built my meditation from like starting with like two minutes a day to like now 30 minutes consistently for almost like the last, um, few months. Spirituality is beyond meditation also, right? Spirituality is for me, I think for me, spirituality comes to,

you know, being fully present in my life as a mom, as a wife, as a, you know, as a business owner, as somebody who has this living, breathing body, right? They, I, I joke with my husband, like, it would have been so easy. I could, I people could just run away to the cave, or I could just go on silent meditation and retreats and like be there and meditate [01:05:00] all the time in, in like a, you know, lone mountain, on top of a mountain.

But I also believe we have a gift of life, right? So for me too, spirituality is, uh, acknowledging that this body is like impermanent and we came in a certain way and we'll all be gone before like, the blink of this eye, right?

[01:05:20] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:20] Kalpa: So it, it, for me, I think spirituality is as simple as that, that reminder.

So it just helps me, um, keep my ego aside. Um, I'm not successful always. Right? But that's where the meditation and, um, breathing and, uh, those, um, you know, practices that I have, like as simple as like going out and

touching,

standing on the grass and looking at the sky, you know, once a day. Um,

just the way,

way to be in my body.

Because part of what I realized Hecate, is my um, like with all the experience that I had around, you know, abuse and trauma, [01:06:00] I had stopped

being in my body, right? I had stopped being in

my body. So part of all of my spiritual practices are absorbing my body, where my mind is going and where my parts are going and where is my spirit?

Like what does my spirit want, right? So I think it's a combination of all those things that are, um, that are really, really, really critical for me, right.

[01:06:24] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:24] Kalpa: And, and they, they formed my core practices around spirituality.

[01:06:30] Hecate: How did

you first start to realize that you were having trouble being in your own body, that that was an issue, and start to address it?

[01:06:42] Kalpa: Oh

God. That there were many different inflection points, right? Um,

like, um,

like when we got married, right?

Like, and we started having discussions around having a child. Like I

never wanted to have a child. I had never even wanted to get [01:07:00] married, right? That was my narrative right at the time, right?

So at different points in time, I feel like I've

ran away from my being in my body.

But most recent like, uh, examples

I would give are where I started noticing that my, I'm not my mind. Right? Like, and that was like, once I started meditation, I would sit and sometimes people, like, I would realize, right, in my case, that I would sit and

like, you know, when you're calm and you're sitting, like, all these thoughts are coming, like, it's like mind is like a chatter box.

Like you don't wanna

think about that person but those are the thoughts that are coming, right?

[01:07:39] Hecate: The monkey mind.

[01:07:40] Kalpa: Right. And 80, 90% of your thoughts are the same. So it's when I started observing those things, that's when I realized, oh my God. Like why am

I thinking of this? And, and there's a difference in, you know, initially when you start

becoming aware, like you are. I've always been a little bit of self-aware, I would say, my God.

[01:08:00] So I, it doesn't, it's not like a new

thing for me. Right. But I've been

self-aware from the perspective of being hard on me, right? But now the self-awareness has come from, oh, interesting that I'm thinking of this.

What, so what, what does that

mean? What am I avoiding? Like, What should I be focused? Like whatever your focus, right?

Your atten, wherever you focus your attention, that grows, right? That just, that's just a fact basically, right? So for me, um, I noticed that I was not being in my body, I would say more profoundly when I committed fully to my, creating my business, right?

[01:08:39] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:40] Kalpa: Um, I mean, there've been many different times.

Like a parent when I was being a mom, when I was working, I quit a job. Like I got laid off many, many different times. But I think it's, it, it be, it has come to a even deeper kind of understanding when being a business owner and creating business and realizing, oh, how [01:09:00] am I showing up? Okay, what is my story like?

And then realizing, okay, the identity of me as a business owner is different than identity of me as a person, and the identity of me as a person, um, is I'm not my body. I'm not my mind. I'm not my spirit. Like, then who am I? Right? So I don't know if it's making sense, but it's, it's a, um, I wish I had a more coherent answer here, but I think it's a, it's a series of way different points in time where I've realized I've not been in my body, and it's through those grounding practices, daily rituals that I, I, I realize when I'm not in my body.

[01:09:37] Hecate: Thank you for

talking about that. So I'd love to ask about partnership, and you've talked about intimacy. So you are married, you have, uh, presumably a relationship with your husband

and

I'd love to, to ask, um, about that. Uh, it, you know, to, to whatever degree you are [01:10:00] comfortable talking about it. Cuz one of, one of the questions that I get asked the most, uh, by other survivors, uh, as a person that also has a partnership is how do you do that?

How do you have a healthy relationship post-trauma? Uh, you know, cuz there is a point in time in healing where you're like, I can't do that. I'll never have that. I am not capable of doing that. Um, and I wanted to, to just ask you about intimacy and partnership.

[01:10:30] Kalpa: Um, so I would, first of all, I would say, um, I

think the, one of the myths we have is relationship intimacy should be easy.

You get your life partner like magic and everything is like, Prince Charming came, or whoever Cinderella like, and your life is happy ever after.

[01:10:48] Hecate: Horse. Sunset. Done.

Roll

credits.

[01:10:52] Kalpa: Relationships take work, right? They do take work. They don't need to be hard, but, but you do, you need to be intentional

[01:11:00] and, and, and wanted. I, and I was reflecting on

this, um, the, my husband will probably say, I, I, I think from the time we've been married, I've probably said numerous times, I, I'm done.

I wanna divorce you and I wanna go, right?

[01:11:12] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:13] Kalpa: And it's been one of my go-to stories to be a, to be able to basically avoid intimacy, um, avoid, you know, where I feel like we could have deeper connection, but then the having that conversation seems so scary that it's easier to just go to that, you know what, I'm done.

I'm just going to leave and I'm gonna go.

[01:11:33] Hecate: Mm.

[01:11:34] Kalpa: That's just a reality, right? So let's just acknowledge that. Number two, what's been also challenging, like one in two marriages I think fail, like divorce rates. I think there's also a lot of myth like growing, growing up in India, oh, divorces happened in America, in India

it doesn't, but trust me, like I've be, I've had many best close family, you know, friends who we've spent like Friday evenings, late nights, and, um, over the years their relationship had [01:12:00] fall fell apart. And,

um, as, as the

relationship fell apart, like I, I felt like, but me and my husband, we came together, or part of us, like a part of us chipped away because you have memories and you know, you have so many things and you, it, it, it became a like very hard to, uh, pick a side, right?

And, and, and, and we feel like you failed that understanding what the, you know, your friends needed. You didn't even know what was going on, right? So, and it's not, I wanna be clear, it's not about us, but at the same time, It's, it takes a lot of work to stay married and stay, be in any kind of relationship.

I'm not even saying married, committed partnerships. Right. So I think that the foundation of, um, uh, a lot of these relationships is being open communication. I, I think we have a lot of resentment, if we don't ask and part of my challenge, my own learning has been, um, advocating for myself, believing fully in me without even, you know, [01:13:00] judging my partner if they are capable or if they are going to say yes or no.

Cause a lot of the times in the past, I would say from, like, for example, I want to do this,

but

hey, do you think that, like, I would go with that energy, like tentative energy

and then knowing or believing that they're gonna say no. Guess what? Then they say no. And then you, I'm, I'm, I'm resenting, you know?

Uh, so I think

part of my own

learning has come, and this is the trauma pattern. Because we don't believe, we don't trust, I'm not worthy, I'm not loved, I'm not understood, I'm not seen, I'm not heard. These are my narratives, right?

[01:13:33] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:33] Kalpa: So, um, I, and for me, it's like I'm not heard, like if I'm not listened to.

So I, I, every fight I get into, it's almost that narrative that you didn't hear me, right? So ev so for me, now, I'm aware, right? So for, for an intimacy, particularly in a committed partnership like you, you each of us have to acknowledge that we are like, we are working on it, you know? And [01:14:00] you take turns in life.

And I, I'm, I won't say that it's, I wish I had a very clear answer, right? But

if anyone who

is, um, who, who is running away from intimacy or things also know that it's just running away doesn't solve your problems. You'll have all kinds of problems. Once, once you, you have a life to share with people it is beautiful because you know what, like, like I, I joke, so it's like my child, right?

He, he, he's like, Mom can I watch the tv? Right? And he'll watch the tv, but, um, and we'll allow him to watch it thinking that he, we are gonna get some time. But the

moment we start talking, he, dad, dad, dad, can you, do you see this? This is so funny. And he'll say, mom, mom, mom. Can you see this? Like, this is so funny. So we, we love

to share the joy with other people around us, right?

I think these are the moments that

keep us, that

remind me that, you know, why we want the relationship. So why I want the relationship to work, right? Why, why? So, um, so for trauma, anyone who's experienced trauma, um, You might [01:15:00] have avoidance, like in terms of intimacy, and that's, that's just being aware. So a lot of the work, uh, when you do embody whether, you know, breath work, uh, meditation or, you know, grounding and, and setting your boundaries of what touch is okay, what is not okay.

You know, if you're early in your life, like in your late, you know, twenties or thirties, and you are, you are dating, you don't need to share your trauma with anybody you don't trust, right? They don't need to know something. Um, so, um, process, but it's also I important that you work on understand your any attachment wounds that you might have based on whether, how, how your caregivers were present or not in your life.

And being aware, I ha always highly recommend therapy if possible. If not, there's a, there's a great book I read by, um, Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller. It's,

[01:15:51] Hecate: I'm in the middle

of

that. Yeah.

[01:15:54] Kalpa: Right.

How are you finding that?

[01:15:56] Hecate: I am struggling to read it because it's [01:16:00] very intense.

Uh,

cause I, I, yeah, I, I won't go too into it, but it's, uh, it's, it's poking me.

It's poking me

in soft spots.

That's a good thing. But it is a challenging thing. So it's challenging me in a good way.

[01:16:15] Kalpa: It is. And you know,

it's, it's, it's one of those things we are going back, like acknowledging what happened because I also had some

of the narratives of, well, my caregivers were present and, um, and all of that.

But here's the thing I would say, you know, we struggle in relationship because we don't take the time to heal our attachment wounds with our caregivers. Right. And we

struggle in the

same area as a mom or as a parent or as a dad because we are playing the same the way we saw our parents be with each other in a relationship, whether, you know, um, like, so in my case, my mom was the emotional person, right,

always talking, and men usually are avoiding their feelings. So, you know, you get into a relationship issue because that's where, you know, you, you feel like the [01:17:00] feeling was, feeling something was not safe.

[01:17:02] Hecate: Mm.

[01:17:02] Kalpa: Uh, you were not allowed to feel those feelings when as a child. Right. So, um, I say that to say though, just be aware of that, to do the work, you know, on you.

And, and I hope I didn't scare anybody here at this point.

[01:17:16] Hecate: No, I,

[01:17:17] Kalpa: it's, it's, uh, it's

uh, it's uh,

it's a work in progress, you know? And that's life.

[01:17:25] Hecate: You mentioned that you disclosed to your husband about a year ago. Is that correct?

[01:17:29] Kalpa: Yes.

[01:17:30] Hecate: Do you, um, can you speak to survivors who maybe are in a relationship and are considering disclosing to their partner?

[01:17:40] Kalpa: So for, uh, the one advice I would have is I be very clear

on why you were sharing. Right. So for me, um,

I came to a point, and we've been, I I I,

if I didn't mention earlier, we've been married now for almost 16 years, going on 17. We've, we've known each other for 17 years.

[01:17:57] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:17:58] Kalpa: Um, and [01:18:00] I

had tried telling it maybe earlier on when either I

was dating or my, um, the, you know, India, there's all arranged marriages, so some relation, some proposals were coming, and I remember telling that to the first

person, but that guy

turned out to be a cheater at the time, right?

[01:18:17] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:17] Kalpa: They were getting, they were, you know, so I have had also all kinds of experiences as, you know, like in relationships, right? So my part of this thing was, you know what, like, it was an important story, I, I tell you, and this, that turned out to be a cheat. Why do they need to know about my family? Okay.

You know what? I'm, I'm gone. They're done. Like, all that story is done. I'm independent, I'm working, you know, I, my husband is a good person. He's supporting me. Why do I need to bother about all these things, right?

But

once I learned about ACEs, once I learned about, you know, like how my, like that this was my own work, like in therapy and how I was showing up in relationships and I needed to tell him to be able to then help him help me, right?

Basically. Staying [01:19:00] married, being with him, and knowing my pattern. So I, my intention was clear at the time, so I,

and, and I wasn't expect, and

I had done the work to hold the space. Now some

people share from day one, and that's okay. And I know many

couples who haven't shared, like some of many

of my friends and many, many of my friends, they have shared recently, in recent years as there's been more talk about this awareness.

So

each person is different. Uh, my only my advice would be just know why you are sharing and be prepared to hold the space also, uh, um, you know, for, um, for however your partner might respond. And then if you are in a relationship, and if you're not survivor, by chance of listening to this podcast, also know that it's a privilege when somebody shares with you and you have, you are not entitled to anybody's private life. No matter how they are your partner or anything, you know, and, and when they share, it's none of your business to go confront anybody.

Like it's, it's really that person's. They are [01:20:00] perfectly capable adult beings. If they have experienced childhood sexual abuse, they can manage their relationship. If you have a problem with anybody, it is your own other drama that's going on, right?

[01:20:11] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:20:11] Kalpa: So, um, and I've had to say that to multiple people in my life at different points in time as I've done this, this, and thankfully I was very clear, I was confident, and I have done that work.

Um, it takes a toll though. Uh, you know, I, I've learned my boundaries in that process, so it hope. Does that help?

[01:20:28] Hecate: It does.

No, thank you so much. That was, that was perfect. Is there anything that you wanna say to the survivors that are listening?

[01:20:37] Kalpa: If you have

experienced childhood sexual abuse, right. Um, for any of the listeners, and

sometimes we don't even

know we have repressed memories and, you know, you might be, uh, encountering toxic people in your life or toxic relationships or feeling like everybody's out to get you.

The, sometimes the patterns show up in many different ways or different health outcomes. And, um, you start to have these [01:21:00] conversations, have grace for yourself, like, be kind to yourself, be really, really kind, you know?

[01:21:05] Hecate: Yeah.

[01:21:05] Kalpa: Just know that you are not alone and, and reach out whether it's a therapy, you know, or whether it's a coaching.

I provide coaching,

but there are thousands of hundreds

of, you know, other people who provide coaching too. There,

there could be a friend

who you can confide into, or maybe a stranger. Sometimes it's easier to

confide into strangers than, than people

you love, particularly in this case. So,

um, find somebody and, and find a way

to, you know, release, whether it's journaling and or writing letters and releasing, whether

it's reading books, but

find something and know that you're not alone.

[01:21:40] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

Um, yeah, and that's, uh, and that, that's, that's it. And, um, I'm just so incredibly grateful for, uh, for your presence, for all of your deeply authentic, uh, answers to all of these questions. Thank you so much [01:22:00] for sharing so much of yourself and your journey and uh, it's just been such an honor and a privilege to, to speak with you.

And thank you so much for, for joining me.

[01:22:10] Kalpa: Thank you so much. It was such a lovely conversation. I, uh, I, I greatly enjoy it, you know, the conversation. So as you edit and let me know when it's ready and yeah, thank you for the platform as well.

[01:22:22] Hecate: Alright. And we're all set. And I hope that you have a beautiful rest of your day and thank

you so

much.

[01:22:27] Kalpa: Thank you. Bye

[01:22:29] Hecate: Bye.

[01:22:29] Kalpa: Okay, stay in touch. Okay bye.

[01:22:31] Ramshackle Glory: Your heart is a muscle the size of your fist. Keep on loving. Keep on fighting. And hold on, and hold on. Hold on for your life, for your life. Your heart is a muscle the size [01:23:00] of your fist. Keep on loving. Keep on fighting. And hold on, and hold on. Hold on for your life.