Escaping Fundamentalism and Speaking Out - Part 1

Andrew Part1

[00:00:00] Andrew: And I realized I couldn't tell anyone this or afraid for my own safety, afraid in my own family, and afraid of what God was going to do to me, and just begging God to make me straight, because that's what I believed that God had wanted at that time.

[00:00:28] Hecate: Hi there. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Hecate and this is Finding OK, a healing podcast for survivors of sexual assault and any and all abuse. When survivors share, we share strength. You are not alone. In today's episode, I'll be speaking with Andrew Pledger. Andrew is a podcaster and a survivor of religious abuse who is doing powerful deconstruction work both personally and in the world.

Andrew attended Bob Jones University, [00:01:00] which is a Christian fundamentalist college with a dark history of abuse. Andrew was expelled from BJU for publicly denouncing fundamentalism and coming out as gay. By the time this airs, Andrew's new podcast will be available. It's called Surviving Bob Jones University: A Christian Cult.

This podcast is exposing BJU and giving voice to its survivors. I hope you'll go check it out. There are links in episode notes. I had a wonderful long talk with Andrew, and I'll be sharing it in two parts. Today's episode will focus on Andrew's experience being raised in a Christian fundamentalist cult, and his time at BJU up until the pandemic.

Part two, which will air next week, will cover his exit from fundamentalism, his expulsion from BJU, and the work he's doing healing and speaking out. Before we dive in... [00:02:00] If you enjoy the podcast, please consider supporting my work by becoming a Patreon member. Tiers start as low as $1 a month, and membership at any level changes my life.

Tier 3 and 4 patrons gain access to a new supplemental patron podcast called Finding More. Tier 4 patrons get access to video episodes of both Finding OK and Finding More. You could be watching this right now! Click the link in episode notes to learn more about membership benefits. Finding OK is funded entirely by the generosity of patrons and listeners like you.

Thank you. And now it's time 

for...

Trigger and 

content warnings for this episode include the following: trauma, child abuse, religious abuse, cults, suicide, [00:03:00] homophobia, and racism. Please check in with yourself and make sure you're all right to continue. So I'd like to start with, are you okay? 

[00:03:10] Andrew: I am doing more than okay today, and I am so, so happy to be here.

And thank you for giving me this opportunity to come on the show. 

[00:03:19] Hecate: I'm so glad that you reached out and I'm really excited just to, to really get into this and to get to talk to you. And I'm really excited about the work that you're doing. And, uh, by the time this comes out, your podcast will probably be available for people to listen to. How, like, how does that feel?

Like just thinking about that with that approaching? 

[00:03:40] Andrew: Oh, wow. It's just, I can already like feel, even though right now as we're recording, it's not done editing, but I can just in the future feel that relief. And I think just when it's released I know I'm going to feel so proud of it because I've been putting so much effort and the podcast is [00:04:00] called surviving Bob Jones University: A Christian Cult, and I attended Bob Jones University for three and a half years.

And before that, I grew up in a Christian cult that was a part of the Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement, so there's a lot with it because me going to Bob Jones, I took a lot of trauma with me going there, and then Bob Jones piled on a lot more trauma onto that those three and a half years and you know, I decided to make the podcast because no one had made a documentary.

No one had made a podcast About the history of this school and all the things that they've hidden that they've gotten away with and also other survivor's experiences and so I thought that it was about time that someone created a project to give a voice to the survivors of Bob [00:05:00] Jones University and to also expose the university for a lot of abuse that it has covered up and a lot of abusive leaders that they've kept despite people coming forward about things and just overall toxic culture of the place.

And really, I think also people who even didn't go to Bob Jones University, if someone grew up in a cult or even just a high control religion, it's going to resonate with a lot of people because it has a lot of similar toxic teachings that are so prevalent in toxic religion. 

[00:05:37] Hecate: It's an incredible thing that you're doing.

And I'm, it's, it's so powerful not only to, to speak up, but to create that space and to really just say like, Hey, we need to talk about this and to put all the time and the work and the emotional, uh, and, and technical labor that, that you are putting into telling those stories and, and really shining the [00:06:00] light on these issues.

So I'm thank you so much for being here. 

[00:06:03] Andrew: Oh, yeah. And also thank you to all the work that you do because I know you put a lot of effort into this podcast. 

[00:06:11] Hecate: Thank you. I do. I do. But I would love to hear a compliment that you've received and that you have never forgotten. 

[00:06:18] Andrew: I think it would be around the time when I escaped fundamentalist Christianity as a whole, and someone from my past who knew me reached out, and even though, like, we disagreed on world views that they were so religious, they said, I'm so proud of you for speaking up.

You are so, so brave. And I think that was so powerful. And just, I think healing for me to get that validation of despite this person disagreeing with our beliefs or like, I'm proud of you for speaking up and being brave. 

[00:06:56] Hecate: I'm so glad that they were able to say that despite [00:07:00] maybe some, some differing of views and, and to appreciate that quality in you, because yeah, it can be hard to, you don't always feel brave in the moment and so it's really nice to hear it. 

[00:07:13] Andrew: It is.

[00:07:15] Hecate: And uh, I would love to know, what is your favorite color or color combination and what do you 

associate with it? 

[00:07:21] Andrew: In the past, I would usually tell people as a joke growing up, my favorite color was green because it's associated with money. That was a joke, but my genuine actual favorite color is orange.

And I think for me, like, I love watching the sunset and to me, just the positive associations of just sitting in awe and enjoying. That moment and just taking it on, it has a very positive association for me and brings such, it just, it also, it boosts my dopamine levels. So yes, I will do that and like serotonin.

So with the sunlight. So that's [00:08:00] why my favorite color is orange. 

[00:08:02] Hecate: And 

what five things best represent you as a person? 

[00:08:06] Andrew: I would say one is a microphone just cause like as a podcaster and is very like also associated with my kind of brand of like speaking up. That's kind of what I'm all about. Speaking up, telling your story unapologetically.

And I think like the second thing that represents me probably, I guess you would say a pen because I'm also a writer. Um, I'm working on my memoir and I've already finished the 1st draft. I'm working on the 2nd draft now. It's, it's going to be a long time before it comes out because there's a lot more healing and processing to come with that.

But that's been so helpful for me to process things and eventually I'll be excited to share that with the world. I think the third thing would be a bookshelf because I love [00:09:00] reading. I love learning. I'm an avid learner. Growing up, a lot of information and books were controlled for what I had access to.

So, and I read a lot growing up, even though it was still controlled. But when I escaped the high control environment I was in, which was at 22 years old. Wow. And I just bought all kinds of books. I'm like, I think I bought like a thousand dollars worth of used books. 

[00:09:29] Hecate: I love that! Oh my gosh, that makes me so happy.

[00:09:33] Andrew: It was, um, it was quite, maybe not the best thing to spend that much money when you're escaping a cult, but 

[00:09:39] Hecate: I disagree! 

[00:09:43] Andrew: But I don't regret it. I, I've been working my way through them and it's like, I don't have my parents controlling this. I'm not at a university that is controlling what information I have access to.

So I'm going to do that. So that's been incredible [00:10:00] for me to learn more, expand my mind and continue overcoming also educational neglect because I was homeschooled my entire life too with a fundamentalist Christian bent on the education. And I think for me, the fourth thing that would best represent me, would probably be a camera.

I used to be really into photography. It's something I've kind of taken a break from. I've always been kind of a creator, um, or an artistic kind of person. I studied photography in school and photography was a way for me to express what I could not say out loud because, you know, art can be very vague and ambiguous.

And that was a way I did that, and that was powerful to me, and that was one of the reasons I got expelled from Bob Jones was I told my story through this photo art series that portrayed religious trauma, and a lot of [00:11:00] people resonated with it online, thankfully, and I still get people who reach out and say, like, they are deeply emotionally impacted by it.

So I think that's something that, that still kind of represents me, and maybe one day I'll get back into it, but I kind of took a break from that once I got out of that environment. And I think the fifth thing, this is, I don't know, this is kind of similar to writing though, I don't know, but my journal, I journal a lot also.

And again, like writing is a way for me to express what I couldn't say out loud and like, that's how my memoir started. It originally wasn't going to be something I was going to release to the public. But when you grow up in an environment where all of your experiences and emotions are invalidated and you're shamed for it, you learn to not speak up and to just be quiet.

So writing was a way to release all of this energy out of my mind, my body. 

[00:11:55] Hecate: Yeah. 

Self expression. 

[00:11:57] Andrew: Yes. 

[00:11:57] Hecate: Yeah. Thank you. Those are [00:12:00] amazing. I love, I've, I've had other guests before that put a book in their five. I love that you were just like, no, a bookshelf, like the whole bookshelf. I love that. I am really curious about all the books that you bought yourself.

What were you most excited to read, like when you were in that moment, you're in that used bookstore and you're like, I can read whatever I want. What were you most 

hungry for? 

[00:12:26] Andrew: For me, it was psychology. Because that was something that was forbidden growing up. You don't consult psychology. You don't learn psychology.

Um, because I grew up in a Christian cult, they emphasize that all you need is the Bible. Read your Bible and pray. All the emotional issues or mental problems you have are because of Satan or spiritual attacks, or you're not right with God or in the right relationship. So, and to them, and really in cults, they have the simplistic black and white answers for [00:13:00] everything in life.

And if those answers don't work for you, it's never them. It's never their teachings. It's always on you and psychology and therapy was something you were not allowed to consult it was what they called, oh, it's secular. Um, it's influenced by Satan. They don't have the beliefs that we do. All we need is the Bible.

It's sufficient. But growing up, I experienced a lot of mental health issues in the environment I grew up in and their formula, their teachings were not making it better. It was not helping at all. I didn't, you know, even when I struggled with mental health in my household, I was not given the mental health care that I needed.

It was just the same, read your Bible, pray, and then just blamed and shamed for it. And so, I have also decided to become a therapist. That's when I was expelled from Bob Jones, I changed my focus in my degree to psychology, and I'm hoping to pursue a Master's, but I was hidden from information that would help me.

And so [00:14:00] psychology. That was really something that I, like, I have a calling to and to help other survivors from cults or high control groups. So I bought a lot of books on trauma and healing trauma. Um, I bought a lot of books from different psychologists. I bought a lot of cult survivor memoirs, and also books on like mythology and storytelling because that was something that was curious as I explored was there's a lot of stories that are repeated throughout a lot of cultures and religions and that just fascinated me and kind of understanding why these stories have resided in our minds and what value can we find in them outside of dogma and own like very specific interp interpretations.

[00:14:45] Hecate: I love that. 

And I love that you are going into psychology and I'm so excited. Um, so, so you said you think you're going for your Master's. Is that something that you're in the middle of or you're, or you're just like gearing up towards it or? 

[00:14:59] Andrew: Yeah, [00:15:00] I, I just finished my bachelor's degree. This was in May of 2023 and it took me 

[00:15:06] Hecate: Congratulations!

[00:15:08] Andrew: Thank you. It took me five years to get my bachelor's because I was expelled from Bob Jones, like my last semester of my senior year, so I was thankfully able to transfer three years worth, but I had to restart my senior year, but, 

[00:15:21] Hecate: mm-hmm. 

[00:15:22] Andrew: I just finished my Bachelor's and I decided I'm going to take a little break from school a little bit just to process things.

[00:15:29] Hecate: That's a good 

idea. Well, and not just to process, but like you're doing all this incredible work right now. Like you're creating the podcast, you're doing all this writing. And I hear, I hear Master's are quite grueling. So it makes sense to kind of like, focus, focus on this before you forge forward with, with that.

I love that. What are three essentials to your self care? 

[00:15:53] Andrew: The first one is getting outside in the sun. That is such an important part for me. [00:16:00] I've always loved going outside and like taking a 30 minute walk and just being in the sun is so helpful for my self care. And I think the second thing to my self care would be knowing like when to take a break, when to really step away.

Because... For me, I've always been the person that's like, Oh, do more, do more, or like being like, Oh, I really need to go to the bathroom, but Oh, no, I can wait. I need to do this instead of prioritizing. So learning that it's okay to take a break. To rest. And I think also that's just, it's a part of our capitalistic culture that tells us our worth is based on our productivity, but that's bullshit.

So it's hard to get that out and I would say the third part of my self care, but honestly, Like, I know everyone is different about spirituality, but for me, reading either spiritual texts or [00:17:00] books that are, like, inspirational, that really, like, feed my spirit and, like, inspire me and give me that feeling of hope and meaning, in a sense.

[00:17:09] Hecate: I love that. 

Books as nourishment. Yeah. 

[00:17:12] Andrew: Yeah, 

[00:17:12] Hecate: They do. They feed the soul. 

[00:17:14] Andrew: They do. Yes. Most definitely. 

[00:17:16] Hecate: Yeah.

So how did you grow up and what is 

IFB? 

[00:17:31] Andrew: So I was raised in a Christian cult that was a part of the IFB movement. And for people who are not familiar, The IFB stands for Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement. And this movement, I want to say, started in like the 1920s or 30s. And it was as a reaction to modernism in our society and also in churches.

In regular [00:18:00] Baptist denominations, there were more fringe members that did not like some of the changes that came along with some liberal theology, and there were some Baptist denominations that had organizations over them that controlled, I guess, their theology and maybe held them accountable. I say maybe because this SBC, they have their own higher organization and they haven't held people accountable.

Um, and there's hasn't been oversight in that. But what happened with the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement were these members in their minds are like, you know, we want to separate from this. So separating from, even believers, separating from believers. And then, of course, especially people who didn't believe at all.

Unbelievers. Separating from people who even Christians who didn't believe exactly what they believed, and it's called independent because these people did not want any [00:19:00] higher organization over them. And I think that's what is really dangerous about Independent Fundamental Baptist churches is that they can operate without anyone knowing about it.

And so here this movement starts with people opening up IFB churches across America and colleges are then put in place that are IFB focused to train up these preachers in this IFB ideology and grant in them in the seminary years or in their undergrad years. And get them to start all these IFB churches, thousands, thousands of them across America to spread this message to eventually influence local politics, and then eventually influence the federal government as a whole.

[00:19:55] Hecate: Yeah, 

[00:19:56] Andrew: and to influence also the world through missionaries, [00:20:00] specifically indoctrinating people into this belief system. 

[00:20:04] Hecate: Can I 

interject for just one second? I just want to clarify. So, something that you just said that if if someone is, I mean, 1st of all, the 1st time I heard you talk about this in, in the tech call, it was like learning secret, uh, American history where, where like, I felt like all of a sudden I didn't fully, I didn't fully understand the country that I was living in.

Uh, and I feel like these days it's progressively getting a completely new perspective on what's actually happening in this country. And so that's another reason that everything that you're going to be talking about today is incredibly important. So you said that raising these, these missionaries and these preachers to go out and to influence the federal government.

And so I want to clarify that that's not a conspiracy theory, that that's real, and happening. 

[00:20:56] Andrew: Yeah. 

[00:20:57] Hecate: Um, 

and like a tangible fact. So I [00:21:00] just wanted 

to clarify that. 

[00:21:00] Andrew: Oh, of course. And there are organizations that are openly doing this. So there's the Family Research Council. Just people can look them up online.

And, you know, Josh Duggar was involved with the Family Research Council. So there's, do with that what you will. And there are other org, I'm trying to remember in my mind. I've heard of different organizations. But yeah, Family Research Council. That's like the main one that I've heard of. And there's a documentary about another organization is I forgot what it's called, but the documentary is called The Family and it's on Netflix.

So that's that's proof of this infiltration that's happening. Yeah. But thank you for like, clarify, like, wanting to clarify that. 

[00:21:44] Hecate: Yeah, no, because if you are anything like me, and you were raised in a completely different, like, where you, you didn't have any contact with any of this, maybe you're on the different side of the country, like, you've never, like, I didn't even know what IFB was before I started [00:22:00] talking to you and started actually hearing about some of this stuff going on, and I'm like, oh.

This is what's happening! And and watched one of the documentaries that that you recommended the um, Shiny Happy People and was like, just kind of had my, my mind blown where I was like, Oh, this isn't a coincidence. This is this is really a planned movement. 

[00:22:20] Andrew: Yeah. 

[00:22:21] Hecate: And this is something that, that, you know, it, it helps if, if you want to be exacting change in your world, it helps to know what you're up against and, and this is part of what 

you're talking about.

[00:22:32] Andrew: And that's the thing, you know, I was never a part of the Institute Of Basic Life Principles, but thousands of IFB churches would send their members to the IBLP to Bill Gothard's seminars to then take these teachings back to their churches. And really, I compared the IFB and the IBLP's teachings

recently, and they [00:23:00] are the same. Um, so when I looked at them, I was like, Oh my, it's just a thing with Bill Gothard. He, I mean, I'm just going to, I hate to say, but he was a smart businessman. He knew how to simplify fundamentalist Christianity and turn it into like a multi level marketing business with his curriculum.

That's what he did. He took fundamentalist teachings and like, kind of made his own brand out of it. And made his own seminars, his own homeschool curriculum, the wisdom booklets, and used that to make so much money and to expand his empire across the U. S. across the world. And, you know, I didn't know the extent of the control that Bill Gothard and the I.

B. L. P. had, honestly, and it was just surreal to watch that. And even though not being a part of the institute, but still being in the I. F. B. And being like, Oh [00:24:00] my gosh, like I had these same teachings. And, you know, for example, the umbrella of authority. I never saw the graphic of the umbrella of authority growing up, but it was taught more implicitly in the IFB.

You never ever went against authority. You don't go from under that they, they would call it protection. I think they would call it hedge of protection or something in the IFB that I grew up in. And I remember my parents telling me growing up, adults are right even when they're wrong. So because they have that position of power, that authority figure, they were always right.

And authority figures, it's not just disobeying them and getting in trouble by them. It's these authority figures represent God. God puts these authority figures in your life. So you go against them, you are going against God, and you know, God growing up was this concept of he's everywhere. He's watching you.

He knows your [00:25:00] thoughts and you have to constantly monitor them, and ask for forgiveness, and confess or you're going to be separated from the love of God. And if you don't confess, he'll eventually like you'll suffer and the Holy Spirit will make you feel sick or God will punish you for it. I was also taught growing up that obeying your parents led to a long life.

So if I didn't obey my parents, God would shorten my life. So that was another thing I was taught. So there's this heavy emphasis on authority and that's a big part of the IFB's teachings, which is really the same as the, um, IBLP, the Institute of Basic Life Principles. And this concept of adults are right, even when they're wrong, obey authority figures, no matter what;

this really gets a lot of abuse swept under the rug. If children are taught that adults are always right, and adults are believed above children, [00:26:00] then anything can happen in that kind of environment. It really, it's an environment that grooms you to be the perfect victim in a sense. And the spirituality they add on to that

I think adds like a whole other layer of, it's not just authority, this is like, this is what God wants and you can't go against that. It's just that power and control that happens in those situations. And another aspect of the IFB was they claimed this specific version of the Bible was the only legitimate word of God and is the King James version of the Bible and all, all other Bibles, versions of the Bible, they were heresy and they were influenced by Satan and like the King James version, the original actual original one was written or published in 1611.

[00:26:55] Hecate: I was going to 

say, I think that's a minute ago. Yeah. 

[00:26:58] Andrew: And so. And it was [00:27:00] funny because I remember it was, I think it was the assistant pastor in the cultic church I grew up in would say, now get out your 1611. And I was confused about that growing up because I didn't know that the King James Bible was published in 1611.

And I, for some reason in my mind, I'm like is a 1611 a type of gun? Cause you know, and there's a lot of different language in that environment of like, you know, the sword, sword of the Lord, that was a phrase I heard of. It's like the Bible is like a weapon you use against Satan and spiritual, things or demons.

So in my mind, I'm like, Oh, like, maybe he means like a gun because we use to protect ourselves against, I don't know, spiritual warfare. I don't know. And I asked my mom, I was like, what does he mean 1611? Is that a gun? And 

[00:27:48] Hecate: I love that. I'm sorry. 

[00:27:50] Andrew: Yeah, and you know, and like this, this cultic church, like we were in like the country, there were so many rednecks in this church.

So that just made [00:28:00] sense to me as a child, at least. And my mom was like, no, she's like, that's when the King James version of the Bible was published. But. Later on, I found out we had the King James Bible, but it wasn't like the original, original translation from 1611, because it had to be revised a bit because of a lot of mistakes, which is another thing that they won't acknowledge.

They believe their KJV Bible is perfect. There are no mistakes in it. It's the inerrant word. Of God, and that was a thing that was a part of my deconstruction journey was really putting that to the test because there are a lot of things in Christianity in general that you're told is truth. And there are a lot of things you can't really prove, like heaven or hell, Satan and demons.

But the one thing I was like, I can prove or disprove is The inerrancy of the Bible, and that was pretty easy to debunk, and I was kind of shocked by how easy that was, and it was really a big shattering moment, I think, [00:29:00] for my belief in that system at that time, and that was like much later on anyways, but other teachings in that environment, they're very, very strict about your lifestyle, what kind of clothes you wear, and especially women, it was a sin for women to wear pants. That was taught a lot.

Women have to cover up. Women have the responsibility for men lusting after them. That was a big emphasis. So a lot of victim shaming in the environment. I remember a story that my little brother had told me. It was the assistant pastor had said this. But anyways, there is this teenage girl. I thought to say she was probably like 14 or 15.

She was basically being harassed by this old man, this usher just making crude sexual comments about her appearance and how pretty and good looking or whatever she was. Just really creepy. And my brother had witnessed it and it was just like, oh, my gosh, that's so awful. That's so disgusting. And the [00:30:00] assistant pastor was like, you need to, saying to the girl, you need to make yourself look less pretty.

You don't need to be so attractive. And I'm just like, Oh my God. Like there's this like actual, like pedophile here hitting on this teen girl. And you're like telling the girl, no, you need to look less attractive. You need to look less pretty. It's just like, but that's like 

[00:30:20] Hecate: Strong Puritan vibes. 

[00:30:22] Andrew: Oh yes. And so yeah, women always had to cover up.

Women had to have a long hair. They didn't, they didn't teach. There, there are some groups that like, you cannot cut your hair. Women were allowed to cut their hair. I'm not sure what the rule of this, like, what is the shortest you could have it, but it had to at least, I'm assuming be below your shoulders at least.

Um, but they were really, like, didn't want short hair at all. They're very strict about music, no movie theater, no contemporary Christian music, no secular music. And there was a really weird rule also, it was called no mixed bathing, and mixed bathing was when pre [00:31:00] pubescent children would like swim in the same swimming pool together.

So when normal people would go to the swimming pool with mixed groups, it was like, you weren't allowed to do that. They called it, the pastor called it mixed bathing. It was just a really weird thing and you couldn't have any access to books or just information that went against what the group taught and so there's a lot of I think Focus on the Family, which is an organization that was started by James Dobson, who also wrote a lot of books on parenting.

He was a psychologist who used his fundamentalist bent. To promote a lot of abusive things and my dad, he had listened to his books for parenting and this guy. Oh my gosh. He is. He's another awful, abusive leader, but he, long story short before he made his Focus on the Family empire. Oh, and he also started the Family [00:32:00] Research Council that pushes Christian nationalism that too.

And he has a history of his beginnings of being associated with a eugenicist, someone who promoted eugenics and family, like biblical family values that are promoted a lot today, they are rooted in eugenics or the people like that or not wanting this straight white Christian family as the legitimate family and family unit.

And it's just taught that if you don't have this unit or this approach, the family, our society will crumble and fall apart. So then anyone who doesn't fit into their description of a biblical family are a threat to society and are influenced or really of Satan. And, and that's another thing that was jarring to me that people who did not accept our teachings and accepted the gospel, which the gospel was just the plan of salvation, to get saved and really just get a ticket to heaven.

It was just a [00:33:00] prayer that you would pray. There's no specific prayer in the Bible at all about this, but this is what I was taught growing up. It was like, admit you're a sinner, believe in Jesus, confess your sins, and once you do that, you have eternal security, and you will always, you'll go to heaven, and you cannot lose that, but there's always a catch.

If you were saved, you would happily conform to their teachings because it was the truth and the Holy Spirit would convict you and make you feel bad if you didn't follow their teachings. And if you didn't feel that conviction, then you were not saved. So there's always that little exception in there.

It's like, oh, yeah, you are saved, but if you don't do what we say, if you don't follow these teachings happily, if you don't, if you don't happily tithe, which we were, we were expected to give 10% of our income. That was another thing that was taught. Yes. My parents always, they gave 10% of their income.

[00:33:56] Hecate: That's a sizable amount. 

[00:33:58] Andrew: Mm hmm. And I [00:34:00] remember as a kid, I would have a $5 allowance and they would, my parents would take 10% out of that before giving it to me. 

[00:34:07] Hecate: Oh, you're 

a child! Oh, geez. Oh my gosh! So, wow! So like financially training you as well, like from a very young age that like everything you have 10% 

to the church.

[00:34:20] Andrew: Yes. And it was always taught in the church that if you do not give 10%, God will not bless you. And it was always taught that, Oh, if you give this to us, God will give you back more and he'll bless you. And it's such a scam. 

[00:34:33] Hecate: Aw geez. 

[00:34:35] Andrew: And I remember as I got older, when I finally like, this was my first like experience in the outside world was getting a job at a fast food place.

And that was at 17 years old. And I remember getting my first check and I remember going to the Bank to put the money in my bank account. And I remember my mom being like, okay, yeah, we had to take out this such and such amount for tithing. [00:35:00] And I remember just sitting there like, I'm 17 and like, she's telling me I have to take this money out from this crappy check that I'm getting 10% of it has to go.

At that point, like, I was again afraid to go against that authority, always obey authority. So I was like, okay, like, whatever, I'll do it. And then eventually, like, as it got to my college years, like, right before I entered college, and she still, like, continued that, I was like, at a certain point, I was like, I'm not doing that.

And I think for me, what I did was I was done giving money to the church we were growing up in because I'm like, I don't support this church. And in my late teen years, I made it abundantly clear that I did not want to go to that cultic church anymore. And, but my parents, they wanted to stay. And I was just, I didn't want to support that.

I wanted that church to just not exist anymore. And I wasn't going to contribute to any of their finances. 

[00:35:57] Hecate: So you realized as a child, even like when you [00:36:00] were still a kid, you, you were realizing like, this 

isn't great. 

[00:36:04] Andrew: Yeah. In my teen years, I think that was when I started to question that. 

[00:36:10] Hecate: What made you 

start to question it?

Because you had been raised like your whole life within it. What made you start to ask questions or realize like there's something wrong here, this 

is unhealthy. 

[00:36:21] Andrew: Yeah. And I think for me, the starting point for that was really my experience with sexuality, not matching what they taught. They taught a very extreme view, very narrow binary view of sexuality.

And basically, if you were not heterosexual and you identified with the queer community, you were just depraved off person and you were compared to murderers, you were compared to pedophiles in that environment. Very extreme. And so in my mind, like, I knew I was experiencing something. I felt I always felt different growing up always felt kind of out of place or didn't quite belong in that environment, but forcing [00:37:00] myself to conform to this role

that the church wanted that my parents wanted. Um, but not sure not knowing what was different and again, like as I got older, it's like I would repress that again and again, and I also struggled with a lot of mental health issues in my teen years, major depression, um, anxiety, specifically also rapture anxiety to just being scared of the second coming of Jesus.

It's just another thing they would teach that Jesus was coming back. They never. They never like decided on a specific date when they thought he was going to come back, but it was just as always this fear tactic of God could come back at any moment and you have to make sure that you're saved. And so that was something that was always so scary to me.

But I think struggling with my mental health, being told, this is what you do to fix it: read your Bible, pray, believe, get close to God; and that wasn't working. You know, when you do the same thing over and over and are not [00:38:00] getting different results, like that's insanity. And it was not working for me. And in that environment, again, no access to any outside information and just so tired of being invalidated and not getting anything helpful from my parents.

I just suffered in silence. And at that point I was like, this is not helping. This is supposed to be the answer, the truth. And the Bible is supposed to be sufficient for everything, but it's not working. And I think for me. Also, I just, having to admit to myself, especially in my teen years, that I don't like going to this church and not having the language for that yet, but just knowing I leave this church feeling bad.

Looking back, it's like, oh, like, they would just shame us and we would have so much shame. Just, you would leave feeling so horrible as just like a worthless person. [00:39:00] And that was another thing that was confusing to me. And they have what they would, I think what people call is like worm theology. It's just, you're just so worthless.

You are a piece of shit, like a worm and no, nothing good inside of you only what's good can come from God. And that's the thing they would tell us is like, only good things from can come from God and being saved and having the Holy spirit. So I was always told that people in the outside, outside the group who were not saved, they were influenced by Satan and they were actually like, they would say they were children

of Satan and unaware of it and really servants of Satan. 

[00:39:41] Hecate: Wow. 

[00:39:42] Andrew: Yes. 

[00:39:42] Hecate: That's so intense. 

[00:39:45] Andrew: Yes. And so I was so scared, like I was suffering on the inside, but I was so scared of what lied outside the group. And we were told that we could never find true happiness outside of [00:40:00] this belief system. This was the truth.

And if we left that, that God would punish us. I would end up homeless. We would end up addicted to drugs, sex, and alcohol. And so, you know, there was no reason to leave the group. This was the truth. God has a purpose for you. And we know what that is. And we're going to tell you what that is. And you better follow our approach to things.

And that was just, that was so scary to even think of questioning. This is the uncertainty that lies outside. And It's called, what they were doing, if this happens in cults, it's called phobia indoctrination. They make you so scared of the outside world, it doesn't matter how bad it gets on the inside, the outside will always be worse.

And I didn't realize they were doing that. It's all I knew. All I knew was fear and control. But growing up, there was always this part of me, which looking back I'd, maybe some people would call it the self, or maybe your higher self, or maybe your intuition. But there were all, there was always this part of me that would come up in certain things.

I'd be like, [00:41:00] is this okay? Something feels wrong. But if that went against the teachings, that was Satan. You don't listen to that voice. Your heart is evil, you can't trust your own thoughts. So they're just teaching you not to trust yourself, only trust what they tell you, trust the beliefs. And so here I am struggling with mental health, questioning my sexuality, not fitting in this binary, and going deeper and deeper into depression, and suffering in silence, and just...

You know, having suicidal ideation, which again was like, Oh, that Satan. Just pray. And if you had suicidal thoughts, like that's selfish, you are selfish for having those thoughts. And so again, that shame that's added onto it. Something growing up that I heard a lot when it came to experiencing difficult emotions or reacting to how someone treated you or how someone made you feel, it was always like, this is what they would say, they, you were told to die [00:42:00] to self.

And what this meant was if you died to self, Your feelings wouldn't be hurt if someone was mean to you. If you were really dying to self, you wouldn't feel anger if someone wronged you. And you wouldn't experience bitterness or not forgive someone if you really died to self. So there's just this idea of you can get rid of your, the painful parts of your humanity.

If you follow this doctrine, you can get good, like be above all this. You don't have to experience these emotions. 

[00:42:32] Hecate: Are you saying die to self? 

[00:42:36] Andrew: Die to self. 

[00:42:37] Hecate: That's so intense because when you kind of, like, flip the meaning on that, like, it is kind of saying that you should kill a part of yourself. 

[00:42:44] Andrew: Yes. Oh, yes.

This is what it's saying, most definitely. And that's what they taught. 

[00:42:48] Hecate: Yeah. 

[00:42:48] Andrew: They called it the flesh. That was one of the terms they had for it. The flesh. 

[00:42:53] Hecate: Okay. 

[00:42:53] Andrew: And I remember A moment when another moment of questioning was, I remember being [00:43:00] in a Sunday school class and the teacher saying that, okay, so again, another term or phrase, the lust of the flesh.

There's another thing of carnal sinful desires, and this would be desiring recognition for something, um, having dreams or ambitions of any kind. Trying to think, oh yeah, sexuality, like, sexual drive, like, that's the lust of the flesh. But, something that, and I accepted that, I believed those things growing up, but one thing that was too much for me to accept was, I heard a Sunday school teacher say that hunger was a lust of the flesh.

So here I am being taught that, you know, the lust of flesh is a bad thing. It's so evil. We have this, and that's, in the Bible, it was called the old man. That was the flesh. And when you were saved, you put on the new man, the new identity, I guess you would say. And this was the Holy Spirit, and these things are at war with each other inside of you.

And you are reading the Bible and praying [00:44:00] and believing in Jesus to overcome this old man, this flesh, and one day when we die, we'll go to heaven, and the old man will finally be dead, and we will not have any of these desires, we will just be peace, happiness, and bliss in heaven with Jesus. But they're like now they're like, yeah, we're saved.

And, you know, we still have that flesh. So in, I think it was called the process of sanctification is what they called it was that denying of yourself and being more and more like Christ and putting on Christ's identity. But I remember this Sunday school teacher saying that hunger is a lust of the flesh.

And he's like, yeah, he's like, some of y'all, some of y'all are really hungry right now because it's about to be lunch. It's like, y'all are going to go and you're going to fulfill that lust and go out and eat lunch. And I was sitting there and I was like. That's not okay. Like, there was this part of me that's like, wasn't going to accept that.

Like, that is not okay. Like, he was shaming us for wanting to eat, and it was a lesson on fasting. That was his lesson about fasting, [00:45:00] because God might answer your prayer or listen to you more if you fast and pray instead. And I remember leaving that and just like, I was just like, that's not okay. Like it just bothered me and I'm just this shame for being human.

And the thing about cults is they want to give you this new identity. They don't want you to have autonomy. They don't want you to think for yourself. They want you to be the person that their ideology wants and someone who will serve the group. And you can never get rid of who you are. It's always going to be there.

But this new identity suppresses that and shoves that down. And you're taught that the best thing you could do is follow Christ and like what they thought their version of that was and so there were moments like that. And another thing that made me question was, I remember every year in our cult, we would have this [00:46:00] yearly memorial service

that was dedicated to the history of our church. It was just a very grandiose kind of thing where it's like, look at all that we've built. Look at it. We started from this little tiny church and look at all that we've built. So for example, what they built, they, after their small church, they built an auditorium that could fit 700 people.

They built a Christian school that could have, like, I think, 500 kids in it. They bought 50 buses for the bus ministry. That was something else that would bring thousands of kids in every week. And then they built this massive auditorium that could fit, I would say, probably, like, 1, 000 or maybe 1, 500 people, but I think easily 1, 000 people.

And then they built this massive fellowship hall that could fit easily a thousand people also. So it was just like, and you know, looking back, it's like all the tithes and all the people, rich people behind the scenes that were probably giving [00:47:00] the group money to build and do all these different projects.

But it was just, and they would, you would walk into this memorial service, they would hand you a pamphlet, and it was like a pamphlet of all the church history. Oh yeah. We also had a camp. We owned a camp, a Christian camp. That was another thing we had. And also I feel like it was like a worship service to our pastor.

[00:47:21] Hecate: I wanted 

to ask you about 

him. 

[00:47:23] Andrew: Yes, and that was something growing up that bothered me too, was the extreme devotion that people had to him. And even my own parents, like growing up, I didn't understand why, and I think that made my parents very disappointed. And that's why they stayed in that church, like, they were there for the nineties and they left over a year ago.

Like they were there like, Oh my gosh, wow. A long time. Growing up I remember asking them, I was like, Oh, like just kind of questioning why people liked him so much. And like, they just started crying whenever they would talk about him. [00:48:00] And I remember in 20, in the early 2010s, there was like a major exodus from the church and

you know, people would just be there one week and not be there and I just remember being confused about that. It was just kind of strange to me and it would start slowly. People who used to sit in the front of the church and then move farther and farther back and eventually next week they were gone.

Did it not telling anyone. And that was strange as a child. And I remember going to my parents and being like, yeah, I'm like, so many people are leaving the church. And I remember my mother being like, yeah, she's like, they're not being loyal to brother Bobby, but we're going to be loyal. We're going to stand by his side.

And I thought that was strange because as a kid, I was always taught about like, oh yeah, like believe in Jesus, follow Jesus, not follow a leader. And that was just not knowing how to process that, but that was like a moment I think of cognitive dissonance as a [00:49:00] child and just being like, what? Loyal to

brother Bobby? That was his name. And that was just confusing to me. And then, you know, looking down on people who have left and saying they weren't loyal to him. And, you know, keep in mind this pastor, he pastored this church for like 60 years. He was very well known in IFB circles. And like, we were like the, I think we had the fourth largest bus ministry.

Across IFB churches all across America, and they were very proud of the bus ministry, and we would have these boards in our auditorium where they would change the numbers each week, and they would talk about the numbers. They loved numbers and how many people we could get to come, or kids we could come on these buses.

And again, what I want to emphasize in the bus ministry, it was segregated, and we had A Sunday school, which stood for auto, those are the white kids, and B Sunday school, and those are the people of color. And we had our own Sunday school classes and the [00:50:00] church also had their own Spanish church where the Spanish people would go to

and it was at a completely different campus also. And I remember growing up and being separated and always being scared of people of color because the messaging that came through that of we're separated. We, you know, we're not supposed to be around them. And of course, you know, they would never say that.

They would never say, Oh no, that was not racial segregation. But looking back, I'm like, it most definitely was. And as I got older, eventually the teen group was then invited to go to, it was called teen church. And this was a big part of where like the best kids would go. So eventually, yes, we did integrate with the bus ministry once we got into the teen years, but a lot of people.

I think there were different reasons to why people didn't do it. But I think one of them was we didn't know how to be around people different than us. It was uncomfortable of like your entire life being separated from people of color. And then [00:51:00] suddenly, oh, yeah, here, go into this room with people of color that you haven't been around at all or interacted with.

And that was interesting because the youth pastor would preach and lead teen church and he, they would try so hard to get a lot of the teens to come, but a lot of them wouldn't. And, you know, it was uncomfortable for me, honestly, to get involved with, but once I did I found some of the most caring and loving people in that environment and made friends. And I was like, Oh, cause in that environment, there were a bunch of these like really rich, snotty white kids who would go to the Christian school and just very elitist. But finding people that just accepted you, it was just surprising to me and a different experience once I integrated myself in that environment.

But yeah, that was something, yeah, looking back, I'm like, that was definitely racial segregation in that environment. And even growing up, there are a lot of extreme things that my [00:52:00] parents taught me. And I was taught growing up in my family that interracial marriage and dating, that was a sin. That was not God's design.

And, and, you know, design was, the doctrine of design or whatever the teaching of design is something that has been used to justify a lot of bigotry, a lot of anti LGBTQ rhetoric, um, a lot of hatefulness against interracial couples and interracial marriage. But I was taught that growing up, you know, so as now I was born in 2000.

So here I am a 2000 kid being taught these things that were taught in the 60s and 70s. Um, 

[00:52:35] Hecate: yeah. 

[00:52:36] Andrew: Oof. And so. It was just looking back. It's just so, so insane to me. And a lot of other extreme teachings that I heard in my own family or views, like I've heard my own dad justify slavery because it's in the Bible.

I've, I've heard my dad justify the Indian genocide in America. Oh, of like, Oh, that was God's judgment. You know, they had that coming. They deserve that. [00:53:00] Um, you know, they didn't believe they didn't accept the gospel. So yeah, so colonization is good. Whatever. But yeah, so yeah. Oh, my God. So yeah, colonization is such a such a terrible thing that has been justified by just really supremacy, like it's rooted in supremacy.

And You know, of course, hearing a lot of anti LGBTQ rhetoric by my parents, saying that gays deserve to die of AIDS, and the IFB church that I grew up in loved the Sodom and Gomorrah story, and so my parents always used it as a reference of like, Oh, look, God killed this entire city of people, burned it up, so, yeah, God's against that. And it was always like, they would never take responsibility for their extremist beliefs, it was always, oh, this is God.

This is what the Bible says. That was always their go to for things. And growing up in that, coming to the realization that I was gay was such a hard thing. And it took a long time, I think, [00:54:00] because I didn't have access to information or to the internet really till I was 17 years old. Before that, I had like an iPod touch when those things existed.

Um, but the internet was always restricted. I didn't have access to a web browser. But when I started like researching more when I finally could about sexuality, it was just a very hard realization and also dealing with feelings that I had, that for someone I had met even like in my church and confused about that and like it was just such a hard reality because all the years of indoctrination of to hate gay people and that they're evil, they're bad, they're an abomination that turned inwardly into internalized homophobia, which then further harmed my mental health.

And I realized I couldn't tell anyone this or afraid for my own safety, afraid in my own family, and afraid of what God was going to do to me and just begging God to make me straight, because that's what I believed that God had wanted at that time. And so it just was me struggling with the faith that I was [00:55:00] brought up in, because I think without that, I was honestly was going to be hopeless because I was taught that.

I wasn't allowed to think for myself. I wasn't allowed to form my identity. This was my identity. If I didn't have this, I was nothing. And that's what I was taught growing up. And so, learned. The years of like, deconstructing that, of putting aside this identity they forced on me, and learning, and still learning, to embrace different parts of my humanity that was a struggle.

I think for me, the last straw in that environment was when I visited a different church. I think it was usually like Wednesdays. It was a different church in my area. And I got involved with their youth group, but long story short, I was ostracized from that group because of people's perceptions of what my sexuality was.

And so people spread a lot of rumors and so I was shunned from that group. And so for me, it was like, you know, growing up, I never felt like I [00:56:00] belonged anywhere. I always had to fit in. I always, I always had to be somebody else to be loved and accepted. It was never, I can be myself, I can be accepted. You had to put on this role to fit in,

to belong. And so I never felt the belonging in the cult I grew up in not in my own family, just feeling out of place. And I just remember growing up, I would really isolate a lot when I could, because there was so much indoctrination because I was homeschooled my whole life. That's another thing. Um, And that was something my parents decided because they met, um, at an IFB college.

My dad, he was a pastor before I was born and my mom, she was studying to be a Christian school teacher. So they have their roots heavy in that environment or that movement. And I remember growing up when I would get a break, it would, I would go to the woods in my neighborhood to just be alone and to enjoy nature and just be with my own thoughts,

to just rest because I always felt like [00:57:00] wherever I was, I was being monitored. I was being watched and I always felt like I was being judged whenever I was in that environment. And so when I was alone, no one could judge me. Like, relationships and people were not safe in my mind and experience. And I remember just, you know, sitting alone with my thoughts and just, and I always had such a, such a strong imagination growing up, intense imagination, which is something that's not really encouraged in that environment or looked positively on.

And I was always also like a dreamer growing up and just wanting to do things. And you also you weren't supposed to be a dreamer in that environment. You weren't supposed to do things for yourself or have goals. It was just serve the mission. That's why you're here. So a lot of those things I would keep to myself and

neither of my parents were like that. They were never dreamers. They were never people who had goals or ambitions. It was just live this simple life. This is the truth. [00:58:00] This is the formula. Follow this structure. You know, there was comfort. There was certainty. There was community in it. But for me, I didn't belong.

I didn't get those benefits from it. And the certainty was nice, until it didn't work, until their certainty and their rules and their ideology didn't work. But yeah, growing up being alone. That was a way for me to just not have that influence to be alone with my thoughts. But as I continue to grow older, I realized that I really needed to detach from my family.

It was a very codependent family and had a very enmeshed relationship with my mother where, like, I didn't know where I ended and she began and like, no boundaries and she was very dependent on me as a child for her own emotional needs because she had no one to go to. And so, oh, I'll just go to my child, my child is my therapist because that's healthy.

[00:58:56] Hecate: Yeah. 

I don't have anyone. I'll just give birth to my own [00:59:00] therapist. 

Yeah. 

[00:59:00] Andrew: Oh my God. And so growing up, like I, there were times I felt responsible to make her feel like that she was a good parent. Cause I remember she'd be crying if she'd be like, Oh, I feel like I'm such a failure. And then I would just be, she would be crying and on the couch or whatever.

Now I have to comfort her and be like, Oh no. And convince her that she was such a great mom or a great parent, that she wasn't failing. And when I would go to her for things as a child, she would always invalidate them or make it all about her in some way, it would always come back to her. And I remember growing up the few times I went to her about things, she'd be like, "Oh, well, I went through this as a child.

It was so hard". And, and she would always go back to this bully that had bullied her growing up. And in her mind, it's like, she had gone through the hardest thing in the world and nothing could compare to it. Nothing I went through could compare. And it was like, "well, I went through this" and she's like, "well, because I'm homeschooling you and I'm keeping you from this, you know, be grateful

you don't have to go through this". [01:00:00] And she would make it all about her and it's like, no matter what I went through, it didn't matter. She went through it worse and I should be grateful that I don't have to go through what she did, but there were things I did go through a lot growing up that she had no idea about that

she was so clueless because I couldn't go to her and also the fear of my own safety for things. So she was not, yeah, she was not a good parent in that area at all. And I think she had been parented that way, and she had a very codependent enmeshed relationship with her mother, but I, again, I didn't have the language, but it was just knowing that, oh, my gosh, like, I, this is really unhealthy.

And just for people to know how unhealthy it was, I had the opportunity to go on a mission trip in the U. S. It was like North Dakota, I think. I was 16 years old, and I didn't think I could be away from my own mother for a week. Like I was afraid to be away from her, like if I would get too homesick and like, it was that bad.

And like, even then at [01:01:00] 16, I'm like, I don't think that's normal to have this such strong, and like, I guess, I don't know what I would have framed it as back then, but I guess maybe like attachment. And for me, I was like, I don't know how, like, how do I, I need to become my own person. I need to individuate.

And for me, the first way of doing that was getting that fast food job at 17. And I remember I was like, okay, and then. I'm going, I want to go to college. I want to education, but that's where my parents would still control me. Because even after they homeschooled me K through 12, my entire life, they were like, yeah, we're not going to help you pay for college unless it's a Christian college.

And specifically a fundamentalist Christian college, which most of them don't have a legit degree, and most of it's a ministry based. You know, becoming a pastor, becoming a missionary, and they're even, it's funny. I mean, it's not really funny, but it's ridiculous how there were like some majors for women where they would be taught how to be a pastor's wife, how to be a homemaker, [01:02:00] because in that environment, women aren't supposed to have careers.

They're supposed to be a homemaker. They're supposed to cook and clean and like sexually please their husbands and be readily available and happily available all the time. And that's how that view was, uh, with their view on gender roles. And I knew I'm like, I don't want to be in the ministry. I remember my mom.

I know she did not want me to go away to college. And like, I think there were times where I looking back, I'm like, Oh, she was trying to emotionally manipulate me to stay home with her because there are moments she'd be like, Oh, she's like, I don't know. She's like, you like to be alone a lot. I don't think you could go away to college.

I don't think you could do that. Um, I think you should stay here, do something locally, but for me, I was like, I have to get away. I had to get out of this family and out of their constant control. Um, and so. I did end up going to college, and it was Bob Jones University, [01:03:00] and I was there. I was able to stay away.

I was there for three and a half years at Bob Jones, and it was something, I really didn't want to go to a fundamentalist college, but there was really no choice, and like the choices that I was given, they were all fundamentalist. I could either go to my parents college that they graduated from, which was Hyles Anderson, which this college was attached to this church called First Baptist of Hammond.

And First Baptist of Hammond, like that is like the pinnacle IFB church. It was the biggest IFB church in America. And I want to say in the nineties, it had like 20, 000 members and they had the largest bus ministry in the IFB movement. They had, I think at least a hundred buses. And this was in the Chicago area.

And they had a college attached to it called Hyles Anderson, and that's where my parents graduated from. That's where they met. That was one of the options to go, and I was like, there's no way I'm going there. Another option was Pensacola Christian College, which is another IFB college. And it [01:04:00] produced the homeschool curriculum that I grew up on called ABEKA.

And just for a little overview of that curriculum... It's based in fundamentalist Christianity. It calls evolution anti science and completely wrong. It teaches that the world is between 6, 000 and 10, 000 years old. You know, the King James version of Bibles only legitimate word of God. This is just a little bit of like the perspective of that curriculum.

This is a little, this is, oh my God. And so here I am. I'm 18 years old looking into different colleges and I, Bob Jones University was never on my radar in the beginning. Like I had maybe, I heard of Bob Jones as a person because my pastor, he would quote him. There's this one quote Bob Jones senior said it was like, "Do right until the stars fall".

My pastor would say that a lot and it was by Bob Jones. So I'd heard of Bob Jones as the person, but I didn't know that he started his own college, and it was started in [01:05:00] 1927. And again, a reaction to modernism, wanting to separate from the outside world and indoctrinate students with fundamentalist ideology.

But I remember being like, huh, Bob Jones. And so it was Bob Jones or Pensacola. Those are the two ones that I came down to. And with Pensacola, their college wasn't even accredited at the time I was applying. And the extent of control that Pensacola took was like so extreme. Like, you couldn't leave campus without signing out and telling people where you're going, what time, where you're going, who are you going with, and when you were there, you were required all these different activities to do, and you had to go to their campus church, you couldn't go to a church outside in a community, they had their own isolated community on the inside, and so hearing

about all of these different aspects from Pensacola and my brother, he graduated from there. And if I would have gone to Pensacola, I would have gone there when he was a senior, but he tried so hard to make me go there. And I was like, no, I'm [01:06:00] like, I knew myself well enough that I would have been miserable and off.

It would've been an awful experience. And at that time too like, at 17 years old, I made internally, the decision to leave at least the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement. I, I, you know, I never said that out loud because that would just be heresy. And that would be like devastating to my parents because that was the truth.

That was the only way. And so I just went along with it. I conformed and I was still, I was so indoctrinated. I was still afraid to go against authority, against what my parents wanted, afraid of what happen, what God might do. And so Bob Jones. It was still, oh my gosh, it was still a very strict school, but it was not to the extent that Pensacola had gone.

So here I am, I'm like, okay, like I need to get away from my family, I want an education, and also Bob Jones University was accredited at that time, which I started going there in 2018. 

[01:06:56] Hecate: Is it still accredited now? 

[01:06:59] Andrew: It is. [01:07:00] Yeah. 

[01:07:00] Hecate: Okay. 

[01:07:00] Andrew: And it surprised me and I just found this out recently. So Bob Jones, they lost their accreditation in like, I want to say like the 70s or 80s because of over race issues of them discriminating and not following federal guidelines in that area.

And so they were not. They, their tax exemption status was taken away, their accreditation was taken away and like it was taken to the Supreme Court and all that stuff. They, they banned interracial dating and marriage until 2000. 

[01:07:30] Hecate: The college? 

[01:07:30] Andrew: The college. Yes. 

[01:07:32] Hecate: Okay. 

[01:07:33] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, the ban was lifted in 2000 and the only reason it was lifted was because of George W.

Bush. He was visiting the college on his campaign trail, which, politics has always been a part of Bob Jones University; and he was visiting the college campaigning and this put a national spotlight on the school. And people are like, Oh my gosh, this school has a ban on interracial dating and marriage and it's [01:08:00] 2000, and because of all the backlash and because it made Bob Jones, their reputation look really bad, they lifted the ban because of it.

And Bob Jones the 3rd, um, just for like a little overview, you know, Bob Jones, senior started a college that it was Bob Jones junior was the next president, and then it was Bob Jones the 3rd and then Steven Jones took over in 2014. And then the 1st person out of the Jones family to take over was Steve Pettit in 2014.

And he recently just left, which I'll talk about that later. But Bob Jones, the 3rd, so he was the 3rd president, um, at Bob Jones university, he went on Larry King live to talk about this, because it was such a big thing, because it made national news, and just, oof, it just, he should have never done it, because he made himself look worse, and the school 

looked so much worse.

[01:08:52] Hecate: Oh no, so he, so he went on there, did he go on there to, like, try to do damage control, and then it, but ended up kind of like, defending? [01:09:00] Is 

that the look that happened? 

[01:09:02] Andrew: Basically, yes. That's the look. And it was because when Larry King, I don't, I do not remember the specific. So this is just paraphrasing, but basically Larry King could not get Bob Jones the 3rd to say that interracial dating, like the ban was wrong, basically.

It was bad. It should like, it was just like, well, it was like always. It's like, "oh, well, the Bible says", or, "oh, we had done, this is how we saw this". So it's something I'm going to integrate into the podcast I'm working on because it's a big part of Bob Jones history, but it's just. Yeah, that's just oof. And another thing about that school was they covered up decades of sexual abuse claims of people coming forward.

And all that finally came out in 2014 in a thing called the GRACE Report. And GRACE is an organization and it's an acronym that stands for [01:10:00] Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment. So, a firm or an organization that specializes in investigating abuse in Christian environments. And, you know, it's surprising that Bob Jones asked this outside organization to look into this.

And something else I just found out is the founder of it is the grandson of Billy Graham, you know, Billy Graham, the famous evangelist in America. I was anyways, I was just a fun fact. 

[01:10:32] Hecate: I don't know who Billy Graham is. I, like, live in a completely different. 

[01:10:33] Andrew: It's all good. You had a good, yeah. Yeah, you had, be thankful that you, you do not know.

Um, but it's funny because Billy Graham also went to Bob Jones University for, I think, one semester and he left because he said the school was a way too legalistic. Um, way too controlling and a thing about Billy Graham is he was on the right side of history when it came [01:11:00] to race issues in that era, he wanted racial integration and he talked about racial segregation being evil, being bad, like, that's a sin.

Like, we all need to come together. We are all one in Christ. But Bob Jones University was like, no, people who want to racially integrate are communist. So that's another thing. 

[01:11:21] Hecate: Classic. 

[01:11:23] Andrew: Communism is something that is just used, that's just so many different things throughout the Republicans. It's just, "oh, they're a communist".

It's just this really, it's been used I think as a thought terminating cliche, of a way to shut down critical thinking conversation, and it's a way to label and generalize people, I think. Um, but yeah, that was something that because in this ideology in the end times in their Bible, the way they interpreted the world.

Everyone is going to become one and be in harmony and at peace. For one, with one another, and I can't remember what time [01:12:00] period that was going to happen. I can't remember. It was like, Jesus was going to come back and take everyone and there'd be a period of peace and then all hell would break loose. I need to review.

Maybe not now, but later down the road review rapture theology and end times. But anyways, there's supposed to be this period of time on Earth for, like, basically, everyone comes together. And they wanted so hard to stop that because they want to save as many people as possible from hell and like a sign of the end coming near was people coming together in harmony.

And I know it's ridiculous now. It's like you're trying to stop world peace because you're afraid of the end times of Jesus coming back and you want to spread your gospel. To save people and, um, you know, the antichrist would come in, but, and it's so ridiculous, but. 

[01:12:48] Hecate: That's so 

interesting because what I hear from other evangelical groups and the way that they interact with, especially like some of them that are interacting with government and, uh, and trying to [01:13:00] influence policy, I keep hearing that some of them are actually doing the opposite where they're like, well, we're trying to do this because it will actually

bring about the end times and we're trying to like, get Jesus back in here and you know, like we want him to come back and so we're gonna do this thing that will set off the apocalypse and the rest of us are sitting here just like, um, maybe we could just make good policies. 

And 

[01:13:26] Andrew: yeah, and like, that is, that is true.

It is interesting about that, how yes, there are people who purposely are trying to bring that about, and it's just interesting to different groups and what they do. But yeah, so they definitely yeah, they fought against that. And I think the, I think a big part of that was the uncertainty that would come with that and fundamentalists love certainty.

They love the patterns. They love the structure. Um, and yeah, so for [01:14:00] me, I, I knew a little bit about the history of Bob Jones before I went in and going in, like I still, I dreaded it. I was like. As a, you know, now accepting my sexuality is, you know, Oh, I'm, I know I'm gay. I'm going into an environment where I'm not allowed to even exist as a gay person at all.

And I'm still under a lot of strict rules, a lot of fundamentalist teachings like, Bob Jones claims to be non denominational, but it's, that's bullshit. They're a fundamentalist college. And I remember just dreading it, but still like, I'm like, I want an education. This is my way out. I was like, just do it for four years, get the accredited degree, because that's how I knew I could get out because at other colleges, if it's unaccredited, you can only get a job within that system.

And so for me, I was like, if I get an accredited degree, I can get out of this. So just four more years. I can get out. That's what I just kept telling myself, four more years. 

[01:14:58] Hecate: That's smart. Yeah. 

[01:14:58] Andrew: And so I went [01:15:00] along with it. And I remember there were moments where my parents were hesitant at first about letting me go to Bob Jones because Bob Jones theology didn't a hundred percent align with the IFB.

And one thing that was hard for my parents was Bob Jones did not take the KJV only stance as the only legitimate word of God. And that was just heresy to them and in their minds, they were, they, and they said to me, they're like, "You know what, since you're not going to be a pastor or a missionary, you're not studying the Bible for your major, we're going to let you go.

But if you were going to go there to do that, we would not help you go there". So there were still areas they disapproved of, of Bob Jones, and I remember my own mom being so worried about when I decided to go there, what to tell people in the IFB, because that was not a college my IFB cult church promoted.

There were, there were so many IFB colleges they promoted, but Bob Jones University was not a college that they [01:16:00] openly supported. So my mom was like, "Oh, what are people going to think when I tell them that you're going to Bob Jones University? What are they going to think of our family?" I was like, Oh my God.

[01:16:10] Hecate: What am I going to 

say to this highly controlled group? You're entering into a different highly controlled group! 

[01:16:17] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. And so I remember, you know, driving to Bob Jones University. A lot of fear about knowing to a certain extent what I was going into and afraid of that. And at that point, I was still like, I consider myself a Christian, but I knew I was ready to leave fundamentalism. But I remember driving in,

meeting my roommates, getting all, you know, all the luggage out, you know, my entire life being around my family all the time and now not going to be around them. That was still hard, um, but I knew it was what I needed for growth. And so I remember when moving in was finally done, we, we drove to like, when I think it was [01:17:00] like, it was a parking lot near the entrance to like, say goodbye.

You know, I said goodbye, and we cried, and I waved as they drove away, and I watched them drive through the gates, and then I waved as I watched them drive by this iron barred fence that I was on the inside, so I'm watching them through this tall iron barred fence, just looking outside, feeling so trapped

and really scared about what it was going to be like in that environment. And for me, I was like, I have to stay low key. I cannot be noticed. To stay as quiet as possible, conform, go with the flow, don't break the rules. And the first semester I tried so hard to follow every single role that they wanted.

And I was a rule follower my entire life. I thought, It made me a good person. It made me feel better than other people. That was the environment that I grew up in. But that attitude, you're better than all these other [01:18:00] Christians because you follow this theology. You follow these rules. You do this and you don't do that.

You listen to this, you know, you go here, you don't go there. But I was suffering because I was following this, these rules. And Eventually, Bob Jones, they turned me into a rebel. I blame them 100%. But no, I think there was a part of me that was still fighting for my individuality and my own freedom and autonomy.

And so I remember going there and you know, again, music, TV, books, churches, all these different aspects, you know, clothes, all these different things, relationships, every part was controlled still. And believe it or not, Bob Jones, it did not feel, it was so controlling, but it wasn't as controlling as the IFB and living with my parents.

You know, at Bob Jones, they do [01:19:00] watch you a lot. There are leaders that watch you, but I didn't have my parents assigned to me, constantly watching me, my family, you could only control or watch over so many students and at Bob Jones, there were different ways they controlled you because, you know, they knew their leaders could only do so much to watch and control.

So there's this kind of interesting snitching system they emplaced there to control you. Basically, if you catch someone or you see someone breaking the rules and you do not, you do not report them and then it's found out later that they get caught and that you did witness that. And you're treated as if you broke that rule yourself.

So it's always better in your interest if you see someone breaking the rules to report them, so you don't get in trouble. 

[01:19:50] Hecate: That's intense. 

[01:19:51] Andrew: So it would create this environment where. You had no idea who you could trust. You don't know who's real, who's faking [01:20:00] it. And there was a group of people at the college, you know, this is interesting when I got there, how they had their own lingo or language, which is another thing with cults, they love, they usually have their own kind of lingo, but one of the first terms I learned.

When I got there was Boj, and Boj is a term for a person at the college who loves following the rules. They follow it perfectly, and they think they're better than everyone else because they do that, and they think that God loves them more, and they're closer to God, and they'll snitch on anyone who doesn't follow the rules, and they love, like they will seek out people to snitch, like they'll be looking for people to get in trouble.

And so I was always, when I heard about this, I'm like, oh my gosh, like, who's a boj and who's not? And that was the first term that I heard. And so I was always afraid of being roomed with a roommate that was a boj. And I was all, and again, like, you never knew who [01:21:00] you could trust. And that was really hard and that was so isolating. 

[01:21:05] Hecate: You had talked earlier about, um, just growing up in, you know, like in this fundamentalist group and, and talking about self monitoring and now you're talking.

So, so you have that self monitoring already installed and now you're in an environment where you're not only self monitoring, but you're monitoring everybody else around you and everybody else around you is monitoring you. Maybe. So just the massive, that's an incredible amount of control that's happening from just literally every angle.

And then the expectation that there's, you 

know, the... 

[01:21:42] Andrew: God. 

[01:21:42] Hecate: Yeah. 

[01:21:43] Andrew: Yes, yes.

Yeah. So another aspect of the control at Bob Jones University [01:22:00] was that you were required to live in the dorms. And this was for specifically this was for students who are out of state and you were between the ages of 18 and 22, you're required to live in their dorms all 4 years. Most colleges, they'll force you to only do it

your freshman year and the other 3 years you can have that option to move off campus or move wherever you want, as long as you're still obviously going to classes and participating. But at Bob Jones, if you specifically are from out of state and you're 18 to 22, you have to live in their dorms. It's not an option.

And that was just something that was just so I don't know if I could have had the opportunity to move off campus. I could have if I, I mean, I would have loved to do that. I think a lot of people would have because of how controlling it was, but because they did that, because you were subjected to a hierarchical leadership structure that existed in each dorm.

So each dorm, the main leader of it, I think it was the [01:23:00] dorm supervisor. And then it was the dorm mentor under them. And then you had residents assistance on each floor. So there were 3 floors in each dorm. So 3 and they would all report as you went up. So if the RA saw you breaking a rule, report to the dorm mentor, then from the dorm mentor, it goes to the supervisor, or sometimes it just goes straight to the supervisor. Um, and then, you know, underneath the residence assistants, there were discipleship group leaders, which were so, there were so many on every floor, and then underneath them were assistant discipleship group leaders, so you have all these levels of authority throughout all these different dorms. And, you know, the discipleship group leaders, they led the groups we were required to go to that met in our dorms.

And that was several nights a week. It was like from 10:30 to 11 at night we [01:24:00] would have to be in this discipleship group and it was usually like 3, I think it was 3 to 4 dorms. And that combined and you would like meet in one room, uh, and they would give you this specially crafted booklet to work through.

And it was based on all the sermons that were preached at chapel, and chapel was another thing we were required to do. We would do this, I think it was at least four days a week, and it was always from 11 a. m. to 11:35 a. m., four days a week, going to chapel, and in chapel, it would be like a praise and worship area, and then we would all, as a university, be required to say a creed in unison.

Which is a really creepy cult moment when I first got there. 

[01:24:50] Hecate: What was the creed? 

[01:24:52] Andrew: Oof. So the creed was based on really the fundamentals of Christianity and you had to believe this [01:25:00] and accept it as absolute truth to even go to school there. But, I'm trying to remember in my mind. Um, but I think it's something like, I believe in the inspiration of the Bible, both the Old and the New Testaments, the creation of man by the direct act of God, the incarnation and virgin birth of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

And then I'm trying, I don't remember it quite after that, but it's like, the death and resurrection of Jesus, the atonement for our sins, and like, it's something about eternal life. 

[01:25:32] Hecate: Okay. 

[01:25:33] Andrew: I eventually, I eventually learned to just block it out whenever it happened. I was just like disassociate. 

[01:25:38] Hecate: Are you 

okay having kind of like said 

that right now?

[01:25:43] Andrew: Honestly, yeah, I'm fine. And it's interesting because in the past, no, but because of my podcast, I've had to hear that over and over again 

[01:25:53] Hecate: Oh geez 

[01:25:54] Andrew: and I've gotten used to it. Um, but it was just interesting because I remember it was [01:26:00] a year ago. Or, yeah, I think it was a year ago. I accidentally, like, came across a video on my phone that I took when I was in chapel and it was of my friend.

They were having all the seniors graduating that year come forward. And I remember, like, accidentally, like, pulling up the video. Then started watching it then had a panic attack. And I was like, Oh, I'm like, we were not ready. We're not ready to see that yet. Just all the associations with that. And like, even as I've worked on the podcast, there have been moments where it's just like a flashback that happens.

And like, it's you like, physically and mentally feel it like it's actually there and it's like really awful feeling and the same exact feelings that come with that. And it's just like, oof. But yeah, so there were all these required activities and, you know, the creed. I remember saying it the first time in chapel and just,

even in that moment, I'm like, this is kind of creepy because we were all saying it in this kind of zombie like hypnotic trance type thing. And like, when you do that, it does put you in a [01:27:00] hypnotic trance and makes you more susceptible to messages. And there's a lot of group pressure in that situation.

And then, you know, after we said that it was usually a sermon for like 20 minutes, we would have to listen to. And every semester was based on some kind of theme and that's why, you know, it had to be all pre planned. Otherwise they couldn't make these booklets for us to work through. Uh, so every sermon, every thing was pre planned and then put in this booklet, which we had to do in discipleship groups.

[01:27:28] Hecate: Do you 

remember some of the themes during the semesters that you attended? 

[01:27:33] Andrew: Yeah. Um, it's, it's funny because it's just some of these basic things that a lot of these groups would do, but like, I think one of them was like, "finish the race" or something like that, and it was 

[01:27:47] Hecate: That was not what I was expecting at all.

[01:27:51] Andrew: And that was one of them. One of them, I think, also was like Divine Design. That was another one. Oh, that was terrible. 

[01:27:58] Hecate: That sounds pretty [01:28:00] dark. Yeah. Potentially very dark. Yeah. 

[01:28:02] Andrew: Yeah. So like, it was basically, again. This concept of, um, the teachings of design are used to justify so much bigotry against anyone who's different. In fundamentalism, difference equals danger, honestly, and, and their eyes. And divine design was all about sexuality,

it was about gender roles, it was about the family, God's structure for society. 

[01:28:29] Hecate: Oh, dear. 

[01:28:30] Andrew: And so for me, it was really hard being gay in this environment and having to hear these very homophobic teachings. And in addition to that, Bob Jones would have these yearly conferences. They were, they were called core conferences, and they were not required of students to go to, thankfully.

You could, uh, no, students could if they wanted to. Um, but basically, core conferences would basically cover culture wars. What they saw it as at [01:29:00] least, or cultural issues that they saw as that needed to be addressed or things that needed to be weeded out of society that they saw, at least, their view. Basically core conferences would always be around a certain theme also.

And you would have all these different seminars from different speakers you would go to, and you might be given them material for each seminar you would cover and they would basically just give you these black and white answers to these complex social issues. 

[01:29:33] Hecate: Do you remember what the core conferences were addressing during your time?

[01:29:38] Andrew: Yeah. So I only, I went to one of them out of curiosity and all the other years I just ignored them. I just didn't, I'm like, no. And like one, and I was honestly, like, I was curious about what was going on. And the core conference I went to, it was, I can't remember the exact, like, title of it and it's funny because they have all their [01:30:00] core conference stuff published online and I'm going to use that for the podcast.

I, I've been avoiding looking at that yet, but, um, 

[01:30:08] Hecate: it'll probably 

be very upsetting, but I mean, if they're putting it out 

there, I mean... 

[01:30:18] Andrew: and so I remember it being on sexuality. And so I remember them saying, you know, this is why people are LGBTQ+, it was either because you were molested as a child or you had a bad relationship with one of your parents, or you didn't get enough, for guys

it was, Oh, you didn't get enough attention from your dad. You didn't form that bond. So now you're seeking another men. So once you heal that, You know, bond issue and maybe have a close relationship with your dad. Oh, then you'll like women like that's the issue that you're trying to do. So it was always some kind of sexual abuse happened or some kind of relational thing with a parent.

[01:30:59] Hecate: Yeah. [01:31:00] 

[01:31:00] Andrew: And that's not based on any research at all. 

[01:31:02] Hecate: No, 

[01:31:03] Andrew: it's not. It's not science based. It's just their personal opinion. 

[01:31:09] Hecate: Well, and 

just, once again, sending the message that if you're gay, you're broken. 

[01:31:13] Andrew: Yes, exactly. 

[01:31:14] Hecate: Something that's wrong with you. 

[01:31:16] Andrew: Oh yeah, and then, oh, a pornography addiction. That's another thing.

Porn leads to being gay. That's another thing. 

[01:31:20] Hecate: Oh, does 

it? Oh, okay. 

[01:31:22] Andrew: That's another 

thing that they... 

[01:31:23] Hecate: Oh no! 

[01:31:26] Andrew: That was another thing that they had taught. Um, yeah. So like, Ooh, yeah. 

[01:31:31] Hecate: I 

didn't know every single man I know is gay!

A lot of the women too! Oh my! 

[01:31:43] Andrew: And so, yes, and you're right. It's this assumption that you are broken. And again, they would call it fallen or sin nature and they would use the term "broken". And that's also their assumption in their biblical counseling, which they used to counsel people with mental health [01:32:00] issues is "you are broken, you are falling".

So there's a lot of shaming and blaming when it comes to mental health issues. Again, you're not trusting enough, you're not believing enough. Scripture is all you need. But yeah, so with the core conference, yes, they cover sexuality. And I remember being in there and just being like, No, like this is so harmful.

[01:32:22] Hecate: I'm glad that you were able to have that response in the moment. 

[01:32:26] Andrew: And like, I remember then also like this one speaker was like, then all of a sudden just ranted about how the evils of masturbation and I was like, Oh, I was like, there's nope. I'm like this. I cannot. And so I went to like, just that one session, all these different things covered and I was like, I am not going back to that. Ever.

[01:32:45] Hecate: Good. I'm glad 

you didn't subject yourself to any more. 

[01:32:49] Andrew: Oh yeah. And then there was another person that claimed, it's so interesting, he was an ex gay. That's what they would call them in this Christian movement. 

[01:32:58] Hecate: I'm so [01:33:00] glad that you got to hear from one of these people, 

because I just, please continue. 

[01:33:06] Andrew: Yeah. And so, and I remember this person getting up and, you know, telling their story.

Of all, like, sexual addiction and all these things. And the thing I want to emphasize with all these different Christians, whether they're straight, gay, or whatever, that come forward and talk about sexual addiction. I've learned that a lot of this so called sexual addiction is usually rooted in shame around sex and sexuality because they're trying so hard to resist it so, so much and repress it.

It causes a lot of, um, excessive behaviors with sexuality. As I've talked to different people, they're like, yeah, they're like, sexual addiction's not a thing. It's more of like, this shame around that, that causes this cycle of excessive unhealthy expression of this where they can't control themselves or like, if [01:34:00] people healthfully integrate their sexuality with their humanity that usually it doesn't result in that.

So it's that the cycle of shame, which, you know, in the environment you grew up with being ashamed for your humanity, confessing it, doing that same thing again, whatever it was, whether it was sexual related or not, just being human. And then again, it's like you're told not to think about the thing, but then you think about the thing.

[01:34:24] Hecate: All of a sudden it's all you can think about. 

Yeah. 

[01:34:28] Andrew: And, but anyway, so yeah, it's framed as a sexual addiction, just homosexuality, that's what they refer to it as. And it was addiction or it was like a mental health or disease or something. And he talked about, yeah, he's like, "I married, you know, I got married to a woman.

I have children now". And in the end it's always like, oh, but I still have same sex desires. And they would always call it same sex attraction. That's what they would call it. I'm, I'm same sex attracted. That, you wouldn't say you're gay or anything. You would say, I'm same sex [01:35:00] attracted. I'm, or I'm struggling with same sex attraction.

That's how they would frame it. It's this sin or addiction. Like, it wasn't any part of your humanity at all. It was just this problem that had to be dealt with and gotten rid of. And, you know, hearing that and all these different things, I'm like, no, like, there's no way. No way. And so I leaving that I'm like, I'm never going to those conferences again.

And it's just, it's hard to be there and just as a queer person experience that. And still, like, even though knowing these things aren't true, feeling that shame from that. And it's hard to see them pushing misinformation about these subjects and things and wanting to try to really change people's sexuality.

Like, you know, conversion therapy is abuse. It is psychological, emotional, spiritual abuse. 

[01:35:53] Hecate: 100%. Yes. 

[01:35:54] Andrew: And yet these biblical counselors think they can change someone's sexuality through their scripture. If [01:36:00] they, uh, they approach it a certain way and just this again, that outlook of, Oh, this is a broken person and we have to fix them.

[01:36:07] Hecate: Yeah. 

[01:36:08] Andrew: But yeah, kind of, as I went on in my journey at Bob Jones, staying low on the radar didn't really work out so well. Because growing up, like I always, like I said, felt that I was different. Always stood out, even when I tried to fit in and not stand out at all. I just did not belong in that environment.

And it was so painful. Because as human beings, we need to belong. We need to connect with people. But I never felt that or had that growing up. And that was, there were so many aspects to my trauma growing up. A lot of it was religious trauma from a lot of the toxic teachings and internalized homophobia, emotional neglect, a lot of psychological trauma, and even just trauma from the way my parents parented me with a lot of really physical abuse that was taught as love and that was okay.[01:37:00] 

Um, but so there were a lot of things that I was dealing with and then not being able, like feeling so separated from everyone, but wanting to desperately connect. And I just remember being there and in that environment, just my mental health deteriorating. Very quickly and feeling myself going back into that state of depression.

It was after my first semester, I wasn't successful at fitting in and not standing out. There were some guys on campus who noticed that I was different and then started harassing me and following me around and like calling me gay, calling me fag, all these different things. And they lived in my dorm, so then I had to worry about being harassed and followed by them.

And I couldn't tell any leaders at Bob Jones because I would be the one that would be put in counseling. I would be the one that would get into trouble.

[01:37:53] Hecate: With them in your dorm, it must have been impossible 

to escape. 

[01:37:57] Andrew: Oh yeah, it was. Like, freshman year was [01:38:00] fucking hell for me, going to that school. I was able to learn their class schedules by observing them. And watching them and I would figure out, oh, they're going to be here at this time. Oh, they're in, they're in this building in this class during this time, they walk down the hall during this time and learning not to.

Yeah. You gotta do what you gotta do. 

[01:38:20] Hecate: So, you're 

in this high controlled environment. And now you're with, you know, every method of control possible, like as mentioned before, and now you're, you're being harassed by this group who are targeting like this thing that you've been hiding and, and afraid of anyone finding out about, and having to completely rearrange your entire life and build your entire day around trying to escape that. Mental like health deterioration is very understandable.

[01:38:50] Andrew: Hmm. 

Yes. And, you know, it got to the point for me, I think after the first semester of trying to follow every rule and, you know, I [01:39:00] was required a good, every student was required to go to church twice a week and you had to pick from an, a approved church list they had and you had to pick from that. And it was all like the BJU theology approved.

And if you wanted to go off that list, you had to ask and usually your request got denied. If it was off that list. So yeah, so I was following other rules around music, movies, just behavior in general, and going to church and, you know, go, I had. Everyone had to go to the required activities with discipleship groups, chapel, church attendance, and I forgot to mention society.

We're all required to join a society when we got there, and it is the Christian version of a fraternity or a sorority, but it's not cool. It's not fun. And that was another thing we were required. And I wish I could have opted out of it, but that was something that met once a week and your society, but also have extracurricular things, which [01:40:00] you weren't required to do, thankfully.

But yeah, that was a whole other thing. So, yeah, all these different activities you're required to do. And so, of course, I had to still keep doing that. But for me, to get a break, I had to eventually be like, you know what? I do not want to go to church anymore. And also wondering, I'm like, and thinking, I think my mental health will be better if I don't go to any of these fundamentalist churches.

And yeah, my mental health was better when I didn't go. And I remember the first time I broke a rule, it was on an accident. So every Sunday morning on this freshman floor, They would always search the dorms and really get everyone out Sunday mornings. You were not supposed to be in the dorm on Sunday mornings at all.

You're supposed to be out in church. So they would always search the rooms and everything to make sure everyone was gone. And so I remember it was one Sunday, I slept in and I [01:41:00] woke up and I hear these doors opening and closing, opening closing. And it's kind of a distant sound, but it's getting closer and closer.

I hear it opening closing, you know, I'm up and, you know, I realized, oh my gosh, I slept in. I look at the bed, the bed bunks and my roommates are gone. And I'm just like, oh my gosh, I slept in. I'm not supposed to be here. I could get in so much trouble for not going to church and being in the dorm right now, and I hear them getting closer and closer.

And so I decided, I was like, what am I going to do? So I said to myself, I'm like, okay, I'm like, I have to hide. And I probably had around like 30 seconds to do something. And so I shoved my mat, I was at the top of the bunk and I shoved my mattress like a foot from the wall. And I slid between the wall and the bunk bed.

And I cover myself up with a blanket. And then after I do this, a few seconds later, the door opens. And I hear the resident's [01:42:00] assistant as he comes in to look and in the bunk beds to see if anyone is still there. And I just hold my breath when he comes in. And I'm just like, please don't find me. Please don't find me.

I was just afraid to make any noise. And there's silence for a few moments. And I'm like, Oh my God, does he see me? Does he see me? And then the door closes. And I'm afraid that when I get up that he's gonna be waiting there waiting for me to get up. And I wait a few minutes just to be safe and then I look up and of course, you know, he's gone and I was just like, haaah! And it felt weird and it also felt really good. 

[01:42:37] Hecate: Yeah, 

[01:42:38] Andrew: a weird kind of adrenaline rush that way. I was like, if I am like, I just broke the rule and I got away with it and I was almost caught. Like, it was just this rush that came with it. And then I could just breathe and I skipped church that morning.

I stayed in the dorm room and relaxed and it was better for my mental health to not go to church. 

[01:42:59] Hecate: [01:43:00] Yeah. 

[01:43:00] Andrew: But eventually, yeah, so that semester was over soon after that. And when I came back, I was still dreading going back to Bob Jones. Just all the required activities were due, all the control, all the rules.

And I remember going back, I still continued to skip church, and how I would do that was I was either one, I would literally hide in the closet behind my hamper. 

[01:43:25] Hecate: Classic! 

[01:43:27] Andrew: Yes. Oof. Or, I would get on shorts and a T shirt and then put on dress clothes over that and walk off campus and then go to a nearby park and then, you know, undress.

And then before I, you know, would head back, dress back in a dress clothes over all that. And then. Go and get lunch. 

[01:43:48] Hecate: That's amazing. 

[01:43:49] Andrew: It was so, it's so 

[01:43:51] Hecate: That's like 

secret agent stuff though. I love it. 

[01:43:55] Andrew: So ridiculous looking back, but eventually though, my mental health was still [01:44:00] deteriorate because number one, still in that dorm with those people.

Number two, not having that sensitive community. And so it got to the point where my mental health got so bad and I was so depressed where I got really suicidal. And just trigger warning for people listening, like I nearly took my own life in one of their dorm rooms and just, I just was so hopeless. I didn't see a way out.

I had been trapped in fundamentalist Christianity my entire life. I knew no one on the outside. I didn't know how I was going to escape. I didn't know how there was any hope or happiness in this environment, living a lie, having to be this person, putting on this role, not having, not being able to express to people what I'm really experiencing or being real with anyone, and even not even able to openly express certain emotions.

And so thankfully I was able to call a hotline, Trevor Hotline, and they helped me get through that. And I didn't, no one knew that happened at Bob Jones. That [01:45:00] was my freshman year. No one knew that happened because I knew if someone knew, I would be forced to go into biblical counseling because I had heard stories of people having mental health struggles, either one: getting kicked out, which is so ridiculous. Or number two: being forced into biblical counseling where you are shamed and blamed for your mental health issues.

And so, yeah, I kept that a secret. No one knew. And so, really, for me, I was like, It was kind of, I feel like the first moment of like, I'm claiming my autonomy. I'm going to do what's best for me because you're taught to just passively wait, like pray, be patient, be still, God will come through. And for me, part of that fear also was I wanted to obey authority.

It was fear of going from under authority and being punished or experiencing harm from God in some kind of way. But I had to get to the point and really get to rock bottom to be like, I have to think for myself and do what's best for me. And just really for me I was like, okay, [01:46:00] getting out my journal and writing down.

Okay. What emotions and hard things I'm experiencing. Okay. Loneliness. This is the core of this. Okay. Loneliness, ostracization, not fitting in. Where? Okay. What do I need? I need community. Okay. Where I find community? I can't find, this isn't true community. And so for me, I was just like, Okay. You know, I have to find it on the outside.

And to me, that was so scary. I'd never explored the outside world. 

[01:46:26] Hecate: At this point. Did you have access to the internet? 

[01:46:30] Andrew: It's interesting. I did have access to the internet. But they could monitor the internet. 

[01:46:35] Hecate: Okay. 

[01:46:36] Andrew: They could monitor that and like, there were sites that were flagged also, that like, you couldn't get access to like, if you clicked on it, it would say, sorry, this website is blocked.

There were certain things that were just blocked. So when I would search certain things on the internet, I would just get off of their Wi Fi, and like clear all the history and everything before I got back on it. Which is just so ridiculous to think about like as a college student, [01:47:00] worried, um, about them doing that, but.

[01:47:03] Hecate: This is amazing 

hearing you like, you're having no, no one on the outside and like just being completely in this thing and just like getting out your notebook and just working it out yourself, and just how much inner strength that had to have taken to, to be your own guide and to just logically work your way out of it.

[01:47:25] Andrew: Mm-hmm. 

[01:47:26] Hecate: and I, I'm like blown away by that process. I interrupted. Please continue. 

[01:47:31] Andrew: Oh, no worries. And like for me, like it was, It was hard to get to that point because I did their formula. And like I said, through my teen years, I did what they said, but it had to make it get to the point of like really getting angry.

And you're like, this is not working. I'm being told this is supposed to work. It's not. I'm like, I had to do something different to get different results. And so it was really hard for me to go against that, to not wait and pray, to not seek counseling, or a spiritual guide, or spiritual [01:48:00] counselor. I was like, just learning what do I

need? And so once I started figuring that out, I was like, okay I'm like, how do I meet these needs? And it was like, the outside, but that was like really scary to me. And so I was like, okay, like let's, let's find true community. And I was like, let's find a progressive affirming church. That's a good place to start with exploring the outside.

I was not allowed to go to a progressive affirming church. There was not any progressive affirming church on that approved church list I had to pick from. So here I am, I didn't even have a car at the college either. So I ordered an Uber a Sunday morning. And I'm like, you know what? I'm like, here we go.

Let's go to this church where I know no one. And let's just see what happens. And so I remember pulling up to the church. It was a very massive building it had a very tall steeple. I remember walking up the steps, just kind of like this [01:49:00] fear and anxiety going through all of me and growing up like I was much a loner, a very quiet person.

And so like being in that situation was like way out of my comfort zone, most definitely, by myself. And I remember walking in and just, it was so busy in the lobby. Everyone was going every which way, and it was overwhelming. And I was like, Oh, like, and so I looked for someone that looked like they knew what they were doing.

And I go over to this man. I'm like, Hey, I'm like, I'm new. I'm looking for like a college and career class. And he's like, "yeah", he's like, "we do not have that here yet because of our demographics. They're like, hope we're working on putting together that class". But he's like, go to, I can't remember what class it was called, but it was some other class that I went to, and it was awkward.

No one really talked to me. I felt really out of place. And I was like, what am I doing here? I'm like, this is so uncomfortable. And. It was interesting because as that man walked me to this class, he asked me where I was from, what college, [01:50:00] and I said, Bob Jones University. And I think in that moment, he knew that if you went there, and you're from Bob Jones, you're most likely an LGBTQ plus person seeking, like, refuge, seeking safety, a community, and you know, he didn't say anything, and he was like, yeah, and then he like, like, casually mentioned like, "yeah, we have a, uh, an LGBTQ+ support group that meets here".

If you want to get, I'm like, I'm like, thank you. And eventually, like, I did, I was like, "yeah, I'm like, I am a queer student from there trying to find community". So, yeah, after the Sunday school class was done, he said to me, he found me and he was like, "Hey", he's like, "there's this section of the church". It was so funny.

It was called the gayborhood. 

[01:50:39] Hecate: That's so freaking cute.

[01:50:42] Andrew: And it was where all the, like the queer or gay people sat in the church, just like sectioned. And I went to it and I met several people and it was getting a bit better. I'm like, okay, like I'm meeting people. 

[01:50:54] Hecate: Was that your first time meeting members of the queer community 

that were out? 

[01:50:58] Andrew: It was not because I had a [01:51:00] family member who came out, which that was a whole mess.

That was a whole mess in my teen years. That we were, basically a long story short with that family member, we were all forced to shun them. And we haven't talked to them since. Um, and, you know, I've been in contact some, but they've chosen to not have contact with any of us, which I totally get. I totally understand, because the association. But, but yeah, in that environment, that was like me, like after years of like, not truly even having any like queer community, like interacting with that, it was quite a different

experience. And I remember sitting through that service and just for the first time in my life, sitting in a church, feeling love and peace, not feeling shame, not feeling anxiety. I'm like, I've never felt good or at peace in a church setting, and this was, it was very strange to me. And it was just really refreshing that the pastor wasn't screaming or [01:52:00] yelling at us, telling us how awful we were and how we deserve to go to hell.

He talked about God's love and how we are all God's children. I had never heard that concept of everyone being God's children, even if you don't believe in Christianity or are a Christian, like everyone is like equal and everyone has worth. And that was a very new concept to me in Christianity to see that and at the end of that sermon, this pastor, he was like, we're having a visitor's luncheon in like 15 minutes in the fellowship hall

if any new visitors, we would love for you to come and, you know, get to know you and meet other people. And I was like, Oh, awesome. People who also don't know what they're doing. Like, I will happily go to that. And so I remember walking out of the auditorium and following the group as we all walked to the fellowship hall.

And this girl says something to me. She's like, Oh, she's like, "someone my age. Finally!" [01:53:00] And I was like, "Oh, hey, what's your name?" And I'm not gonna say their real name, but she's like, "Oh, hi, my name is Clara". "Oh, nice to meet you." And she's like, yeah, she's like, "I'm here with my mom. We've been visiting a lot of churches in the area."

So she's like, "it's so great to find someone my age. There's just so much, so many older people here and I just wanted like a fellow like college age person." And when we got to the fellowship hall, uh, she introduced me to her mom and like, we all sat down at a table and, you know, they asked a little bit about me and I'm like, "yeah, I'm like from Bob Jones, trying to find community as a queer person, just been struggling a lot in that environment."

And I told them, I'm like, "yeah", I'm like, "I literally got here in a Uber, like, I don't know if I can come back here every week, but I'm glad I could come here this week and get to know people and hopefully start finding community." And they were like, "Oh, well, we live right across the street from Bob Jones [01:54:00] University, and we can drive you here every week.

We can come on campus and pick you up." And I was like, "Oh", I'm like, "I would do that". And I was really surprised because growing up, love was very conditional. And so people like not even knowing you that well, yet offering this, being so kind. I was like, Oh, wow. I'm like, am I? "Well, like, if it's not too much, you live right across the street, then yeah, I would love that".

And so 

[01:54:24] Hecate: that's incredible. 

[01:54:25] Andrew: Yeah. So then every week there was like a more secluded ish place I would go on campus to be picked up so no one would ask "who is that?" And so they would pick me up on campus and I would go to church with them every week. And once they really got to know me, they were like, yeah, they're like, you know, we're, we're comfortable.

We know you now we, we want to give you a key to our house so you can come over when you need a break from that place. Cause you know, they were literally walking distance. 

[01:54:52] Hecate: Oh my gosh. 

[01:54:52] Andrew: It was incredible. Like it was maybe less than half a mile, maybe probably less than that, but it was just really [01:55:00] insane how this progressive liberal family lived across the street from one of the most, one of the world's most conservative Christian universities.

And so then I would start going to their house and just, it was nice because I could kick back, relax, and I would go there and sometimes I would just watch TV, and no one would know. I would never get in trouble for that. And, you know, I would go, I would lock up and leave and go back, and I would have dinner with them sometimes too. And it was nice, and it was so surprising to me how much my mental health changed when I was in an affirming space, because before that, depressed, suicidal,

despair. But yet a few weeks later, finding that affirming it was just insane to how my mental health just like get a full 180 change. And that was so powerful to me. And like, it was really surprising because I, they did not believe in the gospel of like, they did not, they did not believe in heaven and hell.

They did not [01:56:00] believe Jesus came to save people from hell. They thought Jesus was just a man, a historical figure and that was it. And it was surprising to me because I was always taught that people who didn't subscribe to the IFB teachings, they were servants of Satan. They were evil. There was no love in their hearts, but yet these are the most kind people.

And, um, I recently interviewed someone on my podcast. Her name is Joe Lloyd Johnson. And she talked a little bit about this experience because she, she loved this part of my story. And she was like, you know, it's, it's life changing when your entire life love has always had strings attached, but it changes everything when you experience that unconditional love.

Like nothing is expected in return for that. And so that was life changing. And it really made me question a lot about what they said about the outside world and about people who didn't believe what they believe because it didn't [01:57:00] match what they said. And it was just like, how do I deal with that cognitive dissonance?

And, and in my mind, I'm like, they were wrong about this. People are capable of being good and loving human beings outside of this system of control. And so from then on I would then still visit and kind of live this double life. It was interesting, um, to live a double life at Bob Jones University.

No one, no one knew. And eventually when I did make friends at Bob Jones, like I never told anyone, them at all, about this other life that I had outside of that and where I would go. And thankfully, like, no one followed me to their house, because that was something I was afraid of, because I was followed a couple of times my freshman year.

By staff members. Yes. 

[01:57:45] Hecate: Okay. 

[01:57:46] Andrew: Yeah. I had at least. 

[01:57:48] Hecate: Like off, they would follow 

you off campus to like check you were going to church? Or what were they...what were they doing? 

[01:57:55] Andrew: Yeah. So this happened my freshman year. I was followed twice. And [01:58:00] I think what happened was someone caught me walking off campus, not at church.

And it was actually a professor that caught me because they didn't confront me when it happened. But they told me when I came, I came to the class and the professor was just making, like, at first it seemed like a nice conversation and then they were like changing, they're like, "Oh, I saw you walking here on Sunday".

And I was like, crap. And like, thankfully that time it wasn't me going to park. I was going somewhere else. Um, but I was like, "Oh yeah, like I, I like taking walks". And that's all I said. And I was like, Oh my God, they saw me somewhere not at church on Sunday. And so then it was after that, I had to be really careful then about Sundays, but the people that I caught following me, it was not on a Sunday.

What would happen was even on weekdays, if it, if the school would be too much, and this was [01:59:00] before I met that family. So my safe space before that was going to a nearby park and being there for hours. Either just swinging or taking a walk in nature. But I think what happened was once they knew that like maybe I didn't go to church on Sundays and also, I think people noticed that I would leave campus a lot.

A lot. Which I didn't have, I wasn't required to tell anyone where I was going. That was not one of the rules. I only was required to tell them if I was going somewhere overnight and that could even be denied. Like you had to submit an overnight pass to go somewhere overnight and that could be denied. So I wasn't going anywhere overnight.

I was just going off campus during the day and I wasn't required to tell anyone that. And I remember the first time I was followed, it was a dorm supervisor. And at first I was like, am I being paranoid? Like I was just taking a walk and this park was probably at least a [02:00:00] mile away that I would walk to.

And so I was like, Oh, maybe this dorm supervisor, he's just walking with his wife and his child. Maybe that's just it, we happened to be walking at the same time and they were like several hundred yards behind me And I'm like, you know what? I'm just gonna go off of this sidewalk and go off through all these back roads because maybe they're not really following me. Maybe they'll just stay on the sidewalk, and they're not following me. I went to all these back roads and you know then I just looked back and they had stepped off the sidewalk and they were following my path down these different, weird back roads.

And I was like, Oh shit. 

[02:00:35] Hecate: That's fantastically creepy. 

[02:00:37] Andrew: Yeah. So I was like, Oh, they are following me. That's great. So I was like, okay, like I don't want them to know where I'm going. Cause like, I did not want my safe space to be ruined and be, you know, so Bob Jones would know that I was going in there. So I, once I got around a corner where they couldn't see me,

I think it was like a, like a, I went around to a different road and then around a house. Then once that [02:01:00] happened, I just ran. I ran and I found a back way back to Bob Jones. And like soon, like probably like 20 minutes after, you know, I ran back. I see them coming back too, and I was like, uh, okay. I'm like, they were following me.

And so then I was like, okay, now I have to find a different exit to leave campus. A different way to leave because that was something I then had to do from then on. Um, but the second time it happened, this was at night, and I knew that I had to get back in time for discipleship groups. And that, you know, that was at 10:30, so I was like, I think it was around like seven ish at night that I was like, okay, like, I'm going to walk to this park, you know, it's dark.

I want to go these back roads, spend this much time here and I can walk back at this time and still be a little early for discipleship groups. So I do it, I get back. And once I sit down at the desk in my [02:02:00] dorm room, someone knocks on the door and it's my residence hall assistant on my floor and he comes in and he's like, yeah, he's like, "are y'all okay in here?"

And then he asked me, he's like, "are y'all doing fine?" And he like looked at me, he's like, "are you depressed?" And there's just a strange. And he was like, "Is something going on?" And, you know, in the environment, like you always have to be happy and joyful. And if you're, you know, you're not, you're not a good Christian, you're spiritually weak, and you have to meet with a biblical counselor.

So I just put on my shiny, happy face and I was like, "Oh, I'm doing fine. Yeah, I'm good". And, and he's like, yeah, he's like, "I'm concerned". He's like, "I just saw you walk into the dark woods". And I was just confused for a sec because what he meant was he saw me walk into the park because it wasn't well lit at night and it looks, if you walk in the entrance, it looks like you're just walking into this dark abyss of woods.

That's what it looks like. [02:03:00] And it's kind of 

[02:03:02] Hecate: scary. 

I saw you walk into the 

dark woods. My gosh. Okay. 

[02:03:06] Andrew: And I was just confused for a second because I was like. I walk there through dark back roads, and it took me 30 minutes to walk there, I was like, how did he see me, and again, like, it was so dark, how was I recognizable, unless he knew I was going there, and he sat there, waiting, and watching for me to see if I would go there, and then he had to get back before me, and then confront me about it.

[02:03:32] Hecate: Okay. 

Also incredibly 

creepy. 

[02:03:36] Andrew: So yeah, so after that, I was just like, "yeah", I'm like, "I like going to that park to de stress". And I was like, in my mind, I'm like, not anymore now, but whatever. 

[02:03:49] Hecate: Yeah. 

[02:03:49] Andrew: Um, but, he was like, "yeah, I was worried, concerned". He's like, "we've been noticing that". And in my mind, I'm like, who's we?

[02:03:56] Hecate: We. 

I've [02:04:00] been, as, as you've been talking about this, I was wondering, like, these people that have been tailing you, is that something that their title, like, gives them the initiative to stalk people? Like, is that, like, under, under the umbrella of their responsibilities? Or, or, like, that, that they would already be asked to do that?

Or, or is that specifically something that would be passed down from a higher authority figure, like, you should follow this person? 

[02:04:27] Andrew: And it's interesting because my dorm sup was the first person I caught following me, the high leader in the dorm. And then the RA, the other, like the, I think he was third down the tier of leadership.

[02:04:38] Hecate: Okay. 

[02:04:38] Andrew: Then he followed me. So yes, there are times I think when dorm supervisors and these leaders will tell people to follow you, and like, off campus, like, I feel like that's illegal. 

[02:04:50] Hecate: Um, 

Yeah, pretty sure it, I mean, if it's not, it should be. I, like, I'm not really, maybe it depends on [02:05:00] the state you're in? But like, I think we can all agree that legalities aside, it is ethically wrong and, uh, super creepy.

[02:05:11] Andrew: Yes, and so, oof. But yeah, so another thing which I recently learned about as I've been interviewing people for the Surviving BJU podcast, there would be RAs assigned that would actually follow certain students that had accumulated a certain amount of demerits. And this one survivor, she told me, she's like, "Yeah, I was assigned, an RA was assigned to me that would follow me from class to class".

[02:05:37] Hecate: That's in 

[02:05:38] Andrew: Yeah, just to monitor her. Because I can't remember how many demerits. I think it was maybe once you got 75, you get what is called "socialed". That's, this is another term, "socialed". And it's when you, I don't think, I don't think you can leave campus unless you get permission for certain things, maybe.

And you weren't allowed to be in [02:06:00] like, you weren't allowed to socialize or get together with friends, even with study groups. You couldn't get together with friends, you couldn't date. And so that's why it was called social, like your social life was just cut. You were cut off from that. The core part of your, like, humanity.

It's just no. You can't do that. 

[02:06:17] Hecate: Like they just 

remove a, like a massive support structure for someone who's struggling and 

[02:06:22] Andrew: yeah. Mm hmm. 

[02:06:23] Hecate: Initiate further control. That's incredibly messed up. 

[02:06:27] Andrew: Yes. 

[02:06:27] Hecate: And so problematic. 

[02:06:29] Andrew: This survivor told me about that now. I was just, I was like, oh my gosh, cause thankfully I never, I was pretty good about demerits until like my junior year, but I'm usually didn't accumulate.

At least the first two years, two and a half years, I did not accumulate demerits that much. And that was just crazy to me. But yeah, so as I'm trying to navigate this high control environment, all these required activities, afraid of being snitched on, afraid of being followed. Oh my gosh. And I was thankful that they never caught me [02:07:00] walking across the street to this house and the nice thing was a way to get to this family's house was there was this like section of woods that had a path that I had to walk through that way that was a shortcut to get to the back of their neighborhood so I would run through the woods in this path to make sure no one could like follow me and then you know get on this street and eventually ended up at their house.

But yeah, no one followed me there. And it was really hard when COVID 19 happened, the pandemic. Because that happened while I was at Bob Jones. That was early 2020. Yeah. 

[02:07:35] Hecate: I did 

not put that timeline together. Oh my gosh. So you experienced lockdown at Bob Jones University. 

[02:07:42] Andrew: Yeah. So 

[02:07:43] Hecate: what was that like? 

[02:07:44] Andrew: Oof. 

[02:07:46] Hecate: Thank you so much for listening.

Please tune in next week to hear the rest of Andrew's story. Please check episode notes, that's where you'll find links to Andrew's website, his podcasts, and links to help you learn [02:08:00] more about some of the subjects we touched on in this episode. Episode Notes is also where you can find all of my links, so you can check out my website, follow me on social media, subscribe on YouTube, and catch me live on Twitch.

Quick podcast update, I will be taking a scheduled break in September to make space for a trauma anniversary. I'll be using this time to focus on self care, work on printmaking, and finish writing the next Personal Story episode. Episodes will return in October, and Patreon members will be getting updates during this break.

Speaking of which, shout out to all my patrons who made today's episode possible. Thank you Emerald, Christopher, Meadow, Sunny Day Outlaw, Kathleen, Betty, Ashley, Sedonka, and Bryony. You all mean so much to me, and none of this would be possible without you. Thank you. Letters [02:09:00] for the Fire is back, and I'm accepting submissions till the end of the year.

Listeners are invited to write a letter to their rapist or abuser and send it to me. I read all of your letters in a special episode at the end of the season and burn them for you. You can learn more about how to participate by clicking the link in episode notes. Today's episode was edited and produced by me, Hecate.

The music is Your Heart is a Muscle the Size of Your Fist, used with the permission of Ramshackle Glory. Thank you again for listening. This has been Finding OK. Black lives matter. Take care of yourself.

Your heart is a muscle the size of your fist. Keep on lovin. Keep on fightin. And hold on, and hold on...hold on for your life. Your heart is a muscle the size of your fist. Keep on lovin. Keep on [02:10:00] fightin. And hold on, and hold on, hold on

for your life.